Ms Rogers: Hello, and welcome to the 1800RESPECT
webinar today.
I'm Carla Rogers and I have the pleasure of
welcoming you.
The webinar is about access to justice for
migrant and refugee women impacted by violence and
we're exploring the experiences,
the barriers and the national framework to
improve accessibility to Australian courts.
Thanks for joining us.
It's terrific to have you here.
Our webinar today is being presented in Sydney and
Melbourne and we're on the traditional lands of the
Eora and Kula Nations, and we wish to acknowledge
them as traditional owners and pay our respects to
Elders past and present and the Elders from other
communities who may be present today.
1800RESPECT is a confidential information,
counselling and support service that is open
24 hours every day of the year and it supports
people impacted by sexual assault,
domestic or family violence and abuse.
People can access the service by phoning
1800 737 732
or visiting 1800respect.org.au
Today's 1800RESPECT webinar,
we'll discuss some key issues impacting on access
to justice for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women, including barriers to reporting family
violence, communication barriers and barriers to
full participation in the court process.
The webinar will also provide us with some
strategies to improve access to justice for
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and
women impacted by violence.
Please note that the webinar is live,
it's interactive and you can enter your questions
and we'll try to answer as many of them as possible
at the end of the presentation.
A quick introduction to our wonderful presenters
today.
We have Magistrate Anne Goldsbrough from the
Magistrates Courts of Victoria.
Magistrate Goldsbrough will provide some context
regarding the establishment and work of
the Judicial Council on Cultural Diversity.
She will discuss the national consultations
that took place in 2015, resulting in the report,
'The Path to Justice: Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander Women's Experience of the Courts'.
She will also talk about the National Framework to
Improve Accessibility to Australian Courts for
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Woman and
Migrant and Refugee Women.
Munya Andrews is a senior indigenous barrister and
also my co-director at Evolve Communities.
Munya will speak about the barriers to access to
justice experienced by many Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women who have been impacted by
violence, including barriers to reporting
violence, communication barriers and barriers to
full participation in court.
She will also speak about some of the actions that
courts, judges and other stakeholders can take to
break down these barriers and improve access to
justice for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women.
A very warm welcome to you both.
It's now my pleasure to hand over to
Magistrate Goldsbrough to start the--
>>Ms Goldsbrough: Good morning.
I apologise for that.
I acknowledge the traditional owners of the
land on which we meet, and this presentation is
occurring today, and also across Australia,
and pay my respects to Elders and custodians past
and present.
Thank you for inviting me to talk with you about the
work of the Judicial Council on Cultural
Diversity, and I've been a member of that council
since it commenced.
We know Australia is one of the most ethnically,
culturally and linguistically diverse
communities in the world.
And in addition to our rich indigenous culture,
Australia is a nation built on migration.
According to the latest ABS census,
these are startling figures, in my view,
and ones that we should always recall.
Nearly 650,000 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
people live in Australia - that's around 3% of the
population.
Nearly 7 million Australians were born
overseas - that's around 28% of our population.
And there are over 300 languages,
including indigenous languages spoken in
Australian households.
The diversity has benefited Australia
enormously, both economically,
in social terms, however, it's also created
challenges in many aspects of our community and our
society, which, of course, includes the justice
system and access and equality of access to it
for all.
The First Nations people, Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islanders, have a singular place in
Australia.
However, the sad history of dispossession and
social exclusion experienced by Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander people over generations
has contributed to their likely over-representation
in the criminal justice system.
It also is almost every other measure of social
and economic disadvantage.
We acknowledge the justice system should recognise,
understand and respond to the needs of Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander people and the people of
culturally and linguistically diverse
communities.
More broadly, many will have access to justice for
all.
Some of my technical skills may be on display here, sadly.
I apologise to all of you.
Now, in 2014 the Council of Chief Justices of
Australia and New Zealand agreed to form the
Judicial Council on Cultural Diversity,
or the JCCD, to provide advice to them and to
courts to better recognise,
understand and respond to the access to justice
needs for culturally diverse Australian
communities.
The Council of Chief Justices comprises Chief
Justices of the High Court,
the Federal and Family Courts,
the Supreme Courts of each of the states and
territories, together with the Chief Justice of
New Zealand.
That is a good bunch of people.
The fact that this body recognised the need and
supported the establishment of the JCCD
is significant and critical for our courts
and justice.
The JCCD's purpose included developing
frameworks to support procedural fairness and
equality of treatment for all court users,
regardless of their race, colour, religion,
national or ethnic origin, and to provide public
trust and confidence in Australian courts and the
judiciary.
The current Chair of the JCCD is the Chief Justice of
South Australia, and I acknowledge our past
Chair, the former Chief Justice of Western
Australia.
The members of the JCCD are drawn predominantly
from the judiciary, and selected representation
from legal and community bodies, as well.
Members are selected to balance both gender and
court level.
I'm the representative from Victoria and I'm one
of only two Magistrates.
Munya and I are both honoured to be current
members of the JCCD.
In March 2015, the Judicial Council received
funding from the Commonwealth Office of
Women to undertake a project to strengthen the
capacity of Australian courts to provide access
to justice for women facing cultural and
linguistic challenges.
We recognised, on the JCCD,
the additional vulnerability and access
challenges for CALD women having to enter the
justice system, often as a result of family violence
or family breakdown, so we focused our project
accordingly.
The first stage of the project involved national
consultations, a very important part of that.
Separate consultations were held for issues
affecting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women, and separately, again,
for migrant and refugee women.
These two projects went along together.
The first stage of the project involved the
national consultations, and that was a very big
endeavour, I must say, across Australia.
As part of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
consultation process, the JCCD held consultation
round tables and one-on-one meetings,
with a wide range of Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander community controlled services and
other groups who work directly with these women
experiencing violence.
Stakeholders, so-called, included legal services,
domestic violence services,
health services and also researchers.
There were two very clear messages that we received;
the abiding need to recognise the special
place of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women in the First Nations People,
and to ensure that the needs of these women are
met at the outset, and their importance is truly
acknowledged.
We need to also understand the potential complexity
of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
communities and cultures, and the barriers in
accessing justice varied greatly depending on
location, age, language and community.
You'll see that report there,
and that's what it looks like if you go to our
website, and I recommend that you download it if
you can.
The focus of the consultations was on
women's experience of the court system and the
actions that courts themselves could take to
improve access to justice, and this is an extremely
important message.
The findings from these consultations were
compiled and documented in our report,
which you'll see on your screen.
As anticipated, the consultations identified a
number of barriers that Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women face when they reach court and,
also, it was a clear finding there were a
number of barriers to these women faced before
they ever reach the court or seek legal support.
And these barriers result in them failing to seek
help through the justice system at all,
and that is a failing.
Another key message was the need to recognise that
family violence invariably involved adult victims and
child victims and, overwhelmingly, women.
Some of the barriers affect Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander women exclusively,
while others are issues that impact on all women
experiencing family violence.
However, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women may experience these barriers more acutely,
of course, because of past trauma, racism, adversity,
disadvantage, language barriers,
cultural difference and social exclusion.
The key barriers to justice for Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander women are those on the
screen; barriers to reporting family violence,
even to police, family, friends, doctors,
any social services; communication barriers and
barriers to full participation in courts
and, of course, that involves varying responses
from those when attending police,
courts or other service.
You can read about these in the Path to Justice
report which can be accessed on our website,
and I encourage you to do so.
Now, we are honoured to have Munya Andrews to talk
us through some of these barriers,
also from her knowledge and experience.
>>Ms Andrews: Barriers to accessing justice for
indigenous women, factors such as inter-generational
trauma and experiences of discrimination,
racism and poverty all form a key part of
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women's
experiences.
Any efforts to improve access to justice to
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
affected by violence must be underpinned by a far
greater understanding of the impact of trauma and
racism and the impact of this on their contact
within the justice system.
Trauma experienced by Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women arises from the forced
removal of children and the loss of land,
language and culture.
It also arises from the burden of adversity
experienced by many Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women, including trauma arising
from racism, ill-health, poverty, injury, suicide,
substance abuse, grief, loss and violence.
It's important to realise that for many Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander women that their entire
world feels unsafe.
While a woman's world may be violent and unsafe,
it is the only world she knows, unfortunately.
For her, there is no safe place anywhere on Earth.
Added to this, the experience of racism,
not only has an impact on the physical and mental
health of these women, but also undermines their
confidence in the institutions,
such as the police and the justice system.
So Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women's
inclination to involve the justice system,
particularly in response to family and domestic
violence is intimately connected with child
protection.
Right across Australia, Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women do not report violence for
lots of reasons, but mainly because they're
scared that they're going to lose their children.
Some women keep their problems to themselves
until the situation escalates to extreme
violence, where acute options such as removal of
children by Child Protection authorities and
prosecution of violent partners really are
sometimes the only options.
This fear reflects both historical and
contemporary circumstances.
The legacy of past removal policies was highlighted
in the findings of the 1997 Australian inquiry
into the separation of Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander children from their families.
There are serious concerns, at times,
about the way that police, in particular,
respond to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women experiencing violence.
Some police behaviour is perceived as
discriminatory, lacking in cultural competence and,
at times, displaying a poor understanding of the
cycle of domestic violence.
Some people talk about a police culture of blaming
the victim and the reluctance by police to
intervene early.
I've also heard of instances of police
treating women dismissively,
sending women home saying it wasn't a good enough
breach, or responding to complaints with an
attitude of, well, you've asked for it.
Some people are concerned that matters are not fully
investigated by the police,
that other witnesses are not interviewed and that
statements are sometimes taken when people are
intoxicated.
Pressure from their family, also,
and the community can result in a reluctance to
seek legal assistance, and we've seen this time and
again with indigenous women.
For example, there's a fear that reporting family
violence could result in having to move away from
extended family and community,
to move away from their support networks.
This would potentially separate the woman and any
children from their social,
cultural and economic world.
In some cases, too, there may also be a fear of
retribution, feelings of shame or guilt or kinship
cultural obligations that make an Aboriginal or
Torres Strait Islander woman reluctant to report
violence.
A significant barrier for some Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women accessing the legal system
is the distance involved.
Some courts have very limited geographical reach
and women may need to travel many hours,
including more than a day, to attend court.
These challenges are often compounded by the
practical difficulties of not having a car or
licence, money for travel or accommodation or
someone to look after their children if they
travel to court.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
living on communities near state borders,
or where there is family movement across
jurisdictions, can have particular difficulties
engaging with the justice system.
Women in these locations, at times,
engage with domestic and family violence,
Child Protection and Youth Justice authorities in
several states.
At times there may be Child Protection orders
and Youth Justice orders in place on each side of
the border, or siblings separated,
with some children removed by one jurisdiction and
the other siblings removed by another state.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
often face more complex legal problems.
Some women may experience a wide range of criminal,
administrative and civil law issues.
Family law, domestic violence,
Child Protection matters, and housing tenancy
matters are frequently interrelated,
and the interaction between these different
spheres of law are not well understood.
A common issue reported in the Northern Territory and
Western Australia was for women to seek help with a
violence matter and then be served with unpaid
fines, or subpoenaed for other offences,
sometimes resulting in jail terms,
which can then result in their children being
removed.
Several major inquiries have found that Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander peoples,
as well as other Australians,
have a high unmet need for community legal
assistance.
Funding cuts seriously affect Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander women's access to justice,
particularly in rural and remote communities because
of the limited time that services were able to
spend in the community.
And this causes many women to find that, really,
their only option is to represent themselves.
In addition, legal services are frequently
unable to provide legal advice or representation
to women due to a conflict of interest arising from
past or current interactions with the
perpetrator.
Again, this is a particular concern in
regional and remote areas serviced by only one or
two community legal services.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
often have poor familiarity with family
law and its processes and their legal rights in
relation to Child Protection.
Also, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women don't appreciate the value of early advice or
representation.
Additionally, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women experience many difficulties in their
dealings with Child Protection authorities and
courts about children.
Many women in contact with the Chid Protection system
do not realise that Chid Protection actions occur
within a legislative framework,
nor do they seek legal assistance for Child
Protection matters.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
often seek legal advice only after substantial
intervention by child safety agencies,
including other children that have already been
removed.
Women have reported that Child Protection agencies
sometimes put significant pressure on victims of
family violence to remove themselves and their
children from the presence of their partner or to
take action in court against the perpetrator.
If they do not, their agencies soon take action
to remove the children from the mother's care.
Difficulty understanding court processes,
including communication difficulties,
can trigger and amplify women's existing fear and
distrust of the court system.
Many Aboriginal and Torres Strait women have trouble
communicating in the language of the justice
system.
Communication barriers can be experienced by speakers
of indigenous languages, and also by some women who
speak Aboriginal English at home.
Language barriers adversely impact on
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women's
ability to deal with police,
engage with support services,
including legal representation,
and communicate with court staff and judicial
officers.
Women with limited English language skills are at a
distinct disadvantage when participating in court
proceedings and understanding court
orders.
Different ways of communicating can affect
the way that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women are heard and understood in the legal
process, including how juries and judicial
officers assess their credibility and
reliability.
Difficulties in communicating also
adversely impact women's experience of the court
system, heightening their anxiety and mistrust.
In addition to being stressed about appearing
in court and frightened by being near violent
partners, women are further stressed by not
understanding what's happening and by the fear
of not being understood.
For Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women with
limited English language skills,
the provision of professional,
appropriate and skilled interpreters is crucial if
the legal system is to respond to their needs and
ensure that they can participate fully in court
proceedings.
However, the availability of interpreters remains an
issue in a number of states and territories.
The lack of indigenous interpreters,
particularly, affects Magistrates Courts,
Tenancy and Guardianship Tribunals,
police and Child Protection authorities.
The observation has been that the lack of access to
interpretation renders the justice system unjust,
that without the interpreters,
clients are not able to fully understand a caution
or to participate in police interviews or
provide English statements,
to give instructions to understand charges,
to engage in processes associated with court
records, for example, pre-sentencing or
psychiatric reports, especially.
Another related issue is the lack of clarity,
really, about who is ultimately responsible for
determining when a client needs an interpreter and
when to stop proceedings if an interpreter is not
available.
An ongoing issue is the failure of police,
council and courts to use interpreters with the
objective of getting through the list,
overriding the obligation to engage interpreters.
There have been occasions when judicial officers and
lawyers recognise that interpreters are needed,
but continue legal processes,
despite knowing the litigant does not
understand what is happening.
This is partly to do with an absence of processes to
assess the need for an interpreter in advance of
a hearing, especially when women are unrepresented.
This issue really is magnified in the case of
remote circuit courts, with Magistrates and
counsel flying in and out of communities and there
is a pressure to complete the list in short time
frames.
There is a lack of consistent awareness or
competence among judicial officers and lawyers of
how to work with interpreters.
Counsel and judicial officers would benefit
from training and professional development
in this area, including how to assess if an
interpreter is needed, skills on working with
speakers of Aboriginal English especially,
practical skills on working with an
interpreter and how to speak in plain English.
Courts are often seen by Aboriginal and Torres
Strait women as potentially unsafe and not
as a place to seek resolution for problems.
I won't go through each of these examples now,
you have them there on the slide but, as you can see,
there are a range of factors about the court
experience that can pose barriers for Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander women,
including the intimidating process of arriving at
court and safety while they're waiting at court,
the unpredictable waiting times,
difficulty understanding forms, charges,
orders or judgments and even the courtroom
dynamics.
Difficulty understanding the court processes,
including communication difficulties can be
triggered and amplified by some women's existing fear
or distrust of the court.
All of these barriers mean that Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women often experience far
higher levels of violence over far longer periods of
time before they approach the justice system,
and more likely to drop out of the process on the
way.
Over to you now, Anne.
So just outlining the issues there for
indigenous women.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: Thank you.
As you'll see, for many of you who are watching this
webinar, the items so carefully identified by
Munya are not new, but the skill and, in my view,
the importance of the work done by the judicial
counsel is identifying them and drawing them into
a document to assist courts to have an
authoritative way of identification and,
hopefully, consistent application.
To that end, there is some other work of the Judicial
Council, including the National Framework to
Improve Accessibility, which I'll talk to you,
and there is also a major piece of work on
interpreters and the application and process
for assessment of need which, hopefully,
on another occasion we'll be able to talk to you
about because I think, personally,
that's an incredibly important piece of work by
the Judicial Council.
I'll go here to the framework.
So, of course, for courts having identified what the
issues are for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women and, of course, the corollary of reports in
relation to CALD women, courts,
having been in many of them for many years,
we need a framework as to how to roll that out
consistently.
And so, as I say, Munya has also reflected very
strongly on the feedback that we have received.
The JCCD has taken, of course,
this information very seriously,
and this framework document is on your
screen.
It's a national approach for courts to improving
this access to justice and achieving equality before
the law for women of culturally and
linguistically diverse background,
particularly in the context of family violence
and family breakdown, as I outlined at the outset.
It is an aspirational set of principles and best
practice guidelines for Australian courts,
federal, state and territory,
all levels to implement and take action to improve
access.
The focus on the framework is on adapting court
policies, procedures and resources,
and a key objective is to promote higher public
trust and confidence in Australian courts and,
of course, consequently, the judiciary.
It has been endorsed by the Council of Chief
Justices and had an official launch in
Canberra last year.
On your screen you'll see the principles.
It's based on the core values to which,
of course, all Australian courts should strive.
These core values guarantee equal protection
of the law for those that come before the courts.
Whilst all of these values are important,
the key value underpinning the national framework is
the achievement of equal justice for all court
users, regardless of their sex, race, religion,
language, national or ethnic origin.
Equal justice means that all people,
including Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women are able to understand,
and be understood, in legal proceedings and have
sufficient awareness and understanding of the role
of the justice system, how courts work and what
protections the law can offer them.
Equal justice also means that courts dispense
justice free from unconscious bias,
of course, and discrimination and that
proceedings are fair and impartial,
major core work.
Judicial officers, court staff,
police prosecutors and legal profession,
lawyers and court report writers in all
jurisdictions should have a level of cultural
awareness, and I would add competence,
around the challenges and barriers faced by
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
seeking justice and access to the system.
An understanding of the gendered inequality and
gendered violence is vital to ensure that judicial
officers and courts, lawyers,
report writers can respond appropriately to the needs
of women appearing before them in family violence
related matters, all related matters,
family law matters, and recognise the difficulties
women may face in engaging with that system.
In relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
women, this requires an appreciation, in my view,
that they may have a legacy in the past of
trauma and may have experienced a lifetime of
institutional discrimination,
making them reluctant to be part of this.
The framework for courts draws on seven action
areas from The International Framework
for Court Excellence as potential areas for
change.
Court leadership and management.
Leadership from the judicial officers and
court administrators, combined,
is essential in demonstrating a court's
commitment to providing equal justice and equal
access to justice for migrant and refugee women
and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women.
Court planning and policies should develop a
clear plan and strategies to implement the National
Framework and improve access to justice,
and there are people in all courts who have taken
on this responsibility.
Court resources, that's both human,
material and financial, and courts need to
understand the communities around them because,
of course, they are all different,
that they're serving, and the steps taken to help
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women
navigate the court system.
The court proceedings and processes, well,
many of those, of course, are fixed,
as some of you may appreciate.
There are rules, the legislation that we need
to abide by, but processes can be adjusted,
and they need to be fair, effective and efficient,
and it's essential that all court users understand
the processes they are participating in.
Client needs and satisfaction,
and that's something that courts haven't,
shall I say, broadly, encountered or undertaken
in the past, but this is a recommendation in the
framework and, essentially,
a prerequisite to tackling the barriers by diverse
communities in interaction is to better understand
what's happening outside our courts to ensure an
effective flow of relevant information between court
staff and administrators and judicial officers
about the needs of court users with respect to
whether an interpreter is necessary, for example.
Affordable and accessible court services,
there are many ways these can be enhanced,
including through forms, brochures and resources,
legal support, documents.
I've prepared many at my local court which,
hopefully, can go some way to reducing this.
Also, public trust and confidence,
which I hope is the appropriate by-product
[ inaudible ] from the screen and a key objective
of this framework is to promote higher public
trust and confidence in the court system.
And we do need to demonstrate that we are
aware of these differences.
To simplify, we've grouped the framework's proposed
actions under three themes that you'll see on your
screens; community engagement and public
information, logistics, support and coordination,
and judicial education or professional development.
All these recommended actions are aimed at
courts and judicial officers, in particular.
We also feel it's good for others to be aware of what
courts already are trying to implement to improve
access to justice.
I think you'll acknowledge there are some excellent
programs and work underway already in many courts
across Australia.
Again, the recommendations are all within the
framework, which you can, of course,
access from the JCCD website.
Munya will now talk us through some of the key
strategies, as she sees them,
for improving equal access to justice for Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander women impacted by
violence.
Thanks, Munya.
>>Ms Andrews: --to build trust
and understanding.
Relationships building between judicial officers
and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
communities sometimes need years and takes a long
time.
Real community engagement is a two-way learning
process with profound benefits for both judicial
officers and communities.
Now, some strategies for engagement may include
things like open days and tours for service
providers and community organisations to make
courts more accessible to Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women; community education forums
and education sessions for women from Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander communities and migrant
and refugee women, of course,
on specific issues or court processes;
regular meetings or court user forums with key
stakeholders, including especially the indigenous
justice groups; and just regular community visits
programs; celebrating days of significance,
such as NAIDOC, the anniversary of the
apology, National Sorry Day,
Reconciliation Week and Ochre Ribbon Day;
developing and maintaining court forms and brochures
on their services in plain English - that's really
important - and a resource list on relevant issues
for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women,
including legal services, victim assistance
services, domestic and family violence services
and housing and financial support.
There are a number of ways in which courts' premises
and processes can be improved to make courts
more accessible for Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women.
Courts should consider improving their signage
and information available upon arrival at court,
including translating a signage into community
languages with high Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander populations.
All courts should consider investing in security and
safety measures to ensure all court buildings are
safe environments for women.
Courts should seek to improve data collection
about the cultural, linguistic and gender
diversity of their court users and also their
satisfaction with the court experience.
Such information would assist courts to ensure
that they are responsive to the needs of their
users and enable the courts to tailor their
responses, in particular, to the needs of Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander women.
It would be beneficial in Magistrates Courts for
staff to hold a daily coordination meeting
before hearings begin in a family violence list to
allow priority to be given to high-risk cases to
ensure that interpreters are available and to
prioritise the list accordingly,
to liaise with legal representatives to manage
conflicts and to liaise with applicant and
respondent support workers.
The proposed actions around judicial educations
are consistent with the feedback from the 2015
consultations and also with my broad experience.
There is a need for greater access to training
and material that provides cultural context to
judicial officers.
Areas for suggested attention include the
dynamics of domestic and family violence, trauma,
especially intergenerational trauma,
unconscious bias, cultural awareness,
a greater understanding of local communities and
their specific cultural practices,
plain English communication and working
with interpreters.
There is a strong case for having training delivered
by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people,
where possible, and tailor it to the local
circumstances.
So, over to you, Anne.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: Thanks, Munya.
And I very much agree with those matters outlined.
As you can see, there's a lot of work to be done,
with good work already well underway.
There are Benchbooks and training is already being
rolled out in some areas.
The challenge now is how we can best implement the
proposed actions in the framework,
improve access to justice in a real way for
indigenous women and migrant and refugee women
in Australia across all levels of state,
federal courts, territory courts,
Children's and Magistrates Courts, Family Courts,
District, County and Supreme Courts as we know
that family violence is present in every one of
those courts, as presented to us as judicial
officers.
Members of the JCCD and the Court Cultural
Diversity Champions met in October last year to
workshop implementation of the framework,
to prioritise the things courts and judicial
officers personally and as a group can do in the
short and medium term to improve access to justice
for women from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
communities and, of course,
our CALD communities.
We are meeting again in October.
We look forward to hearing your views on how best we
can work with you and other key stakeholders to
improve access to justice for Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander women in Australia in all our
courts and tribunals because if we work
together this will happen.
Thank you.
There'll be some questions that I think Munya and I
will attempt to respond to for you.
Would you like to go to those now, Munya?
>>Ms Andrews: Yes.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I can see one that is on the top
of the screen in relation to interpreters,
and I know I touched on that and it is a key
challenge, not only in availability of
professional interpreters in the diversity of
languages required, how easily accessible they
are, but we do know there are also challenges in
many of our communities, Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander and CALD communities,
of knowledge of family and who the interpreter is.
If you go to the Judicial Council of Cultural
Diversity's website, you'll see the National
Framework for Standards of Interpreters that are
recommended for courts and, essentially,
it is a series of principles and policies
for professionalisation of interpreters and,
of course, how best they can be used.
We have been preparing some materials for
training for judicial officers and also
interpreters.
It is a challenge and I think it's important that
courts consider that when an interpreter arrives and
understands that they have a duty to faithfully
interpret.
Certainly the matters that I deal with in court,
I would never use a family member unless it was
absolutely desperate in the short term,
but it's not to be desired.
And that's one of the first ones.
I'm not sure if that's a good enough answer,
but I hope that we might be able to present you
with some more material about interpreters in due
course.
>>Ms Andrews: I think one of the other issues too,
Anne, is we know that you need interpreters for
specific languages, but I think there's a great need
to think about interpreters of Aboriginal
English, as well, which is a fully fledged language
in itself, and this is not about having proficiency
of English or not enough English,
this is about needing interpreters for people
who speak Aboriginal English.
It's a language of its own and I find that there is a
great need in the courts to address this issue,
as well, just around interpreters.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: Very important.
And, fortunately, Munya and I have worked together
on a bit of professional development for judicial
officers and I think that's something that I
would like to do something with you again, Munya,
if we can in Victoria next year on just these issues.
>>Ms Andrews: Exactly.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: We need to know it and our staff
need to know it, the lawyers need to know it,
and if everybody has this knowledge,
then it won't be left to one section of the
community.
I think it's a joint venture.
>>Ms Andrews: Yes, for sure.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I'm just looking at some of the
questions.
"How long does it take?"
Well, how long is a piece of string?
On the basis we all work together, we have to,
I think, see incremental change.
In my view, I've been a magistrate for nearly 22
years and I was involved in the Family Courts prior
to that, I see this as a massive change.
The fact that the consultations have
occurred, the fact it's now documented that there
are recommendations and a framework for
implementation auspiced by such an authoritative
body, such as the Council of Chief Justices,
who take recommendations from the Judicial Council,
this is a massive step forward.
It makes it easier for courts to try and make
decisions that are consistent,
and consistent with each other in each state,
federally and locally.
So it's my view we all have to,
together with the courts and our administrators,
to take this onboard and implement it a step at a
time.
As long as we're moving forward,
I see it as significant progress.
Munya, are there other questions you see there?
>>Ms Andrews: "How do you think we can improve
staffing and expertise, especially for rural and
remote communities?"
Any ideas there, Anne, about how we can improve
that?
>>Ms Goldsbrough: Well, improved staffing,
can I go back to specialisation?
I probably have a practice as a specialist family
violence magistrate and have been involved with
the Law Reform Commissions in that regard.
Specialisation is the key.
It's understanding, it's then application and
specialisation of all elements of the system so
that judicial officers, court staff, lawyers,
police prosecutors, police,
and across Australia we see some pockets,
in my view, of excellent, determined development.
Do I think that it's perfect?
Nothing is ever perfect, unfortunately,
but we have to move forward.
We need to support the champions,
support those who undertake leadership roles
to improve and just promote consistent best
practice every day.
We need to have community engagement to learn.
It's working with people like Munya that I have
been so grateful to learn more each time we work
together or I work with others.
We need to expose ourselves to other ideas
and, in my view, judicial officers do that
strikingly well, despite what some might say.
You might have some other voices in the community.
Every judicial officer I know wants to do the right
thing, they want to do the right thing consistently
and I think these sorts of frameworks can help people
move in the right direction.
Our champions across Australia are responsible
for taking this work back to our courts.
It's always worked on outside our everyday
sitting in court, but there are many very
dedicated people determined for this change
that I would say, from this side of the bench.
Munya, I wonder what you think about that?
>>Ms Andrews: Definitely.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Anne.
It's about community engagement and building
partnerships and relationships with people
in the community and, especially,
the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
communities that that support comes from there,
as well.
And it's spreading that education among
themselves.
It's a two-way education process.
Magistrates Court workers learn from indigenous
people and indigenous people learn from
magistrates and court workers.
So, definitely, community engagement is the key.
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I think it's important that
communities understand the way courts work.
When we talk about access to justice,
there are things that we can change, moderate,
improve, try to do differently,
ensure it's consistent, ensure specialised
practice is involved.
But courts are institutions that live
within a framework of rules and the law and it's
how we apply it is the principles that we're
talking about here.
So I think it does help when communities come in
and understand the way it works.
Years ago we developed, for example,
a Walk In Her Shoes tour, which was by talking to
some of my registrar people I worked with in
Melbourne a long time ago, and we now have people
come to the court to see what it's like to arrive
at court, make an application for an
intervention order, go through the system,
and they can go back and explain - this is for
workers and support workers and teachers and
kindergarten people - to see what it's like to
apply for an intervention order,
to understand the system, to go back and speak to
people about how it works.
And the introduction of the morning meeting has
been a key feature of my specialist courts for
years because I don't go, but the staff and the
lawyers and the police can look at a list and try and
coordinate and ensure an interpreter is there.
There may be some incredibly high-risk
matters that need some priority for legal advice.
It's everybody taking part in trying to get the best
outcome is the way to proceed.
Munya, are there some other questions that you
see there?
>>Ms Andrews: Yes.
I think there's one there from Hannah.
"How, as support staff, can we use this framework
to educate magistrates and DV specialist courts who
have been seen to speak poorly to the Aboriginal
women we are supporting?"
Just offhand, I was thinking just straight
away, obviously that speaks to the need of more
cultural awareness or cultural competency
training for magistrates.
I know a number are undertaking these,
and I've been involved in that over the years,
through time.
It's about spreading that message.
I think making them aware that the framework exists
and for people to educate themselves about all of
those barriers that I spoke about but, again,
that communication one is a really important one.
It's a hard one to get around without the
cultural awareness training,
for people to be aware of the different ways in
which indigenous people, especially, communicate.
They're quite pronounced from the lack of direct
eye contact, to speaking in a softer voice,
to who gets to speak and, particularly,
some reluctance, cultural reasons about speaking to
peoples in positions of authority,
which of course magistrates are.
That's just offhand what I'm thinking about.
Anne, can you think of anything else,
how magistrates or court workers can use this
framework?
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I think understand the framework.
I do go back to my point that specialised practice
is key.
I think the appreciation of difference is also
important for judicial officers.
When we talk about judicial independence,
that is an independence in relation to my decision
making and all judicial officers' decision making.
So, courts across Australia have broadly
embraced, in my view, judicial education or
professional development.
And we know that the community is made up of
all sorts of different people,
and even though the numbers of judicial
officers are relatively quite small,
the sense of obligation and determination and hard
work, in my view, displayed by judicial
officers, broadly, is important to acknowledge.
Again, I say that I don't know any who want to make
the wrong decision or say anything that's
inappropriate on purpose, but I know,
I'm sure that from time to time I've said things that
were perhaps misguided, misunderstood.
I'm being candid here to show you that it's about
trying to be open, listen, reflect,
have fabulous opportunities to work with
other people, engage with the community,
which is what these recommendations are.
Sometimes there are things that everybody in the
community says which may be inappropriate,
and I think if we consider that judicial officers are
just members of the community - I have my
dogs, my kids all of those things - and we need,
therefore, everybody to have this support and
understanding of what's an inappropriate thing to
say.
I accept that there are greater expectations from
our judicial officers.
We are fortunate and have a terrific job,
which I like very much, and I appreciate that
special position, but we are every day members of
the community.
So let's focus on training everybody,
providing education to everybody not to make
those mistakes.
>>Ms Andrews: Lesley-Anne had a question,
"That government website that you mentioned,
that CALD website, is that a government website,
Anne?"
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I think, perhaps,
if you can go to the Judicial Council of
Cultural Diversity, the JCCD,
if you go to that website, it's government,
but it's auspiced by the Migration Council and
operated by the Migration Council,
but if you type in 'Judicial Council of
Cultural Diversity' you'll find all of those things.
I think there's a question where Hannah has asked,
"Will you see the Murri Courts in this space,
specialist courts?"
>>Ms Andrews: Yeah, that's the question.
Well, I would have thought that goes to that
specialisation that you talked about, Anne.
I think, to some extent, the Murri Courts,
the Koori Courts would probably no doubt be aware
of this framework and, if not,
would be aware of a number of all of those issues
that we've talked about.
So it's just as applicable to them, of course.
Did you want to add anything to that, Anne,
bearing in mind we have to wind up?
>>Ms Goldsbrough: I think there certainly is the
absolute appropriate place for specialist courts for
our First Nations people, and there are different
ways of handling matters in courts,
but I think the Murri Courts and the Koori
Courts are, as Munya says, right there as specialist
and this framework is applicable to them too
because not everything is perfect,
but we want it to be.
Thank you everybody.
Unless there's anything else?
>>Ms Rogers: We want to thank Anne and Munya for a
fascinating presentation today.
Thank you.
Thanks to Stephanie, Christine and the Judicial
Council on Cultural Diversity for their
support in organising today.
Today's webinar is available on the
1800RESPECT YouTube channel very soon,
and a case study will also be on the website,
as well.
You'll receive a notification when that
goes live, and please feel free to share it with
anyone that you think will find it interesting.
Don't forget to subscribe to the 1800RESPECT
Frontline Workers Connect newsletter on the
1800RESPECT website to find out about any
upcoming events.
Thanks, again, to Munya and Anne,
and thanks to everyone today for tuning in.
Thank you.
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