- A special guest on today's program
to talk about a journey of faith and conviction.
You don't wanna miss it.
Let the Bible Speak starts right now.
From the churches of Christ
Let the Bible Speakf Christ
Let the Bible Speak
with Kevin Presley
♪ Intro Music ♪
And welcome to Let the Bible Speak.
It's great to have you with us as always.
And I'm joined today by a special guest
or a special friend of mine, brother Jimmy Cating,
and brother Jimmy has been preaching the gospel now
for about the same length of time that I have,
about 25 years or so.
And we've known one another about that long, haven't we?
Jimmy has worked with churches in Oklahoma and Texas,
he originally is from Indiana.
He's a great gospel preacher and has been holding
a gospel meeting in my home congregation
where I live right here in Alabama.
But I wanted to have him on as a guest today,
because he has an interesting story
that will, I believe, serve to illustrate
some of the powerful truths of the Bible
concerning the New Testament church,
and specifically God's plan and God's pattern
for how the church is to worship.
And so we're gonna talk about that today in our broadcast.
And we'll be back to do that in just a moment,
but first, an announcement and a song.
- If you would like to dig deeper into the Word of God
I'd like to provide you with a great opportunity
to do that and it's free.
Hope to hear from you today
enrolling in our Bible Correspondence Course.
You don't need to feel overwhelmed by the Bible.
If you don't know how to study the Bible
or where to begin in reading the Bible
this course will help get you on track.
It will answer some very, very important
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and what the overall message is about.
When you enroll in the course
we send out the first lesson.
You take the time to read through it
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we'll check it and send it back along
with the next lesson in the course.
You do it in the privacy of your home
at your own pace and again it is free.
So let us hear from you today
and we will enroll you in the Bible Correspondence Course.
And welcome back.
As I said before, I'm joined now by brother Jimmy Cating,
a long time friend of mine and fellow gospel preacher,
and it's just a delight to have you on the program
- Thank you,
it's good to be here. - today.
We come from various similar backgrounds actually,
and began preaching the gospel about the same time,
about 25 years ago or so.
And as I say, our backgrounds are very similar.
We were raised among churches that adopted
the ideas of the Restoration movement,
the restoration of New Testament Christianity.
Sometimes as you go through life, though,
and as you study the Bible, you come to understand
that maybe in your own life,
the restoration is not yet complete.
And you come to understand things that you were not taught
as a child, or maybe what you were taught
was contrary to what the Bible actually teaches.
And that was the case with both of us here.
And you know, for a lot of people,
when they find themselves in a situation like that,
they struggle with what will I need to do about this?
It sometimes can call upon us
to make very difficult choices,
to leave something that we've known all of our life,
in order to embrace what we know
from God's word to be the truth.
We've talked about this on numerous occasions
on the program down through the years,
but many of the practices that even are used,
that are adopted within churches of Christ are not biblical,
they are modern innovations of man
as opposed to following the pattern
that the Lord Jesus and his apostles gave in the Scriptures.
And one such case is the Lord's supper
and how the Lord's supper is observed.
And tell me a little bit about your journey
and how you came to understand the truth
of what the Bible teaches about, for example,
congregation using one loaf and one cup containing fruit
of the vine in the observance of the Lord's supper.
- Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
It's my privilege to be here to share
a little bit about myself,
but also share some things from the Scripture.
That's really our standard and what we must go by.
As you said, we have a similar background.
I was raised respecting the doctrines of the church,
the doctrines of Christ.
My family and I were members of a very loving
and what many would consider a conservative congregation.
In 1992, on one particular Sunday morning
as we were getting ready for services,
I went into the living room
where my grandmother was bedfast
and was turning the television on,
getting ready to leave and visiting with her.
And we came across a program called Let the Bible Speak.
At the time, of course, several years ago now,
but they had a different host.
His name was Ervin Barnes,
and we were attracted to the familiar doctrine.
We were, of course, very impressed
with the use of Scripture to support his points.
And we also liked the acapella singing.
And so we became fascinated and fans of that program.
And we started a new routine watching that program.
And the
one particular Sunday morning,
we listened to the program and heard something
that we have never heard before.
And that was the
importance of using one cup in the distribution
of the fruit of the vine,
and using one loaf in the Lord's supper.
- And you know, that was the typical practice,
not only of churches of Christ down through the centuries,
that was the typical practice
of most religious organizations for a long, long time,
until approximately a hundred years
or a little over a hundred years
in the denominational world.
And in 1915, brother G.C. Brewer,
who was a prominent preacher amongst churches of Christ,
introduced the practice of individual communion cups
in a church in Tennessee and it spread from there
among the churches of Christ.
And the point that I wanna make is,
you know, a few generations ago,
there were a lot of people who were familiar
with this controversy, they were familiar
with the fact that churches, in fact, many of them
had been in congregations that used one cup,
and then those churches changed somewhere along the way.
Now that generations have passed,
there are multitudes of people out there just like you,
and me, and others who at one time said,
we have never heard this.
Because we take it for granted.
We were raised to worship using modern innovations.
And I would assume there are people that may be watching
this program for the first time today,
and you may think, what in the world?
There are people that believe in using one container, right.
- That was us.
We had never heard of that before.
And of course, because it was new to us,
we were very cautious.
But as we studied we realized that it wasn't new
in the Scriptures.
And at the same time, we didn't want to be
too dismissive of it.
We wanted to investigate, because we know
the Bible warns against being gullible,
and the Bible warns against being deceived,
but the Bible also warns about the blinding power
of preconceived ideas.
And so we wanted to study the Scriptures
to see whether or not it was so.
- So this began a process of studying the Bible
about this issue.
Now, of course, the authority is in the word of God,
it's in the teachings of Christ and the apostles,
not in what you or I say
or what anybody might try to teach us,
it's what the Bible says.
And so, let's go and back to some of the very things
that you began to study and examine.
And I, likewise, a little before that,
but what are some of the things that stood out to you
as you read through the biblical accounts
that said, hey, you know, there's something to this.
This is what the Bible actually teaches.
Well, first of all, we had to determine
whether or not there was a pattern for the Lord supper.
And when you begin to look at Scriptures
like First Corinthians 11:23 through 25
where Paul reiterated and instituted the Lord's supper
for the Corinthians or reminded them what the Lord said,
he said this, he said, I received from the Lord
that which I also delivered unto you.
He said, keep the traditions, keep the ordinances
back in verse two of the same chapter,
just as I delivered them to you.
That indicates that there is a pattern for the Lord supper
and it must be followed.
And of course, a pattern will indicate
that the Lord wanted it to be done a certain way.
And like you said, most churches of Christ today
recognize that there is a pattern to some degree,
the question is whether or not
one cup should be a part of the pattern.
- And how do we determine what is incidental
to the establishment of the supper,
and on the other hand, what Jesus intended
as part of the pattern that churches
from there on out were to abide by?
- Well, you go back to the examples,
and you go back to the teachings of the gospel.
In fact most people would be surprised
that the Lord's supper is only mentioned four times
within the New Testament.
And I think it's worthy for us to kind of go back
and look at what the New Testament teaches
concerning the Lord's supper.
These four accounts begin with Matthew,
at Matthew 26 verses 27 through 29
where Jesus took the cup and gave thanks
and gave it to them saying,
drink from it all of you,
this is my blood of the new covenant
which is shed for many for the remission of sins,
but I say unto you, I will not drink
of this fruit of the vine from now on
until that day when I drink it new
with you in my Father's kingdom.
So here we find that Jesus picked up one cup
and most everyone agrees,
most lexicographers agree
that this was a literal drinking vessel
that Jesus picked up one cup.
He gave thanks for one cup,
he gave his disciples one cup,
and he commanded that they drink
from the cup that he gave them.
- And that's the point that people oftentimes missed.
There was a command involved in there.
It's not just merely that the record says
that's what he did, he attached a command to that.
- That's exactly why.
And if Jesus were here and he handed you a cup
and he said, drink from it,
I think you would agree that it would be disobedience
if you picked up your own cup or
you used something else beside what he gave you.
Now Mark tells us in Mark's account,
it is very consistent with Matthew.
Mark tells us that the disciples understood
exactly what Jesus meant.
Mark chapter 14 verses 22 through 23,
it says as they were eating, Jesus took bread,
blessed it and broke it and gave it to them and said,
take, eat, this is my body.
Then he took the cup and when he had given thanks,
he gave it to them and they all drank from it.
So, here we have Matthew giving the command
and Mark giving the example.
They followed the command and they all drank from it.
- When we were in Bible studies and discussions
with brethren on the other side of the this issue,
back during the time of our conversion,
we made the argument many times
as I have heard countless times since, well, yes,
but when the Bible says cup, it has nothing to do
with the drinking vessel, it's an metonymy
talking about the contents of the cup.
And so drinking vessel itself is immaterial.
How do you come to understand
that that was a fallacious argument?
- Well.
- Of course, metonymy is sometimes used,
but it's not always figurative.
And explain how you came to that conclusion.
- Right, well, of course, we have to understand
that in order for metonymy to work,
the thing named, of course, represents something else.
- [Man On Right] That's right.
- But the thing named has to be present.
- Exactly.
- And I understand the argument.
I used to think of those arguments as well
when I was on the other side of the issue.
But in order for fruit of the vine, for example,
to be referred to as a cup or as cup,
it must be in a cup.
And you, of course, you drink the cup
by drinking the contents of the cup.
You don't go to the store
and ask the folks at Walmart where is your cup?
And they automatically know you're talking
about fruit of the vine or grape juice.
Go ahead.
- If the account had said Jesus took the cups with an S,
would there be any doubt in anybody's mind
that he's talking about,
if it were cups, drinking vessels contain,
but everybody would point to that as authority
for using more than one.
- Absolutely.
Yes, and the fact that he used the one cup
and he used the language the cup,
it indicates that he intended for this to be
a part of the pattern.
And it's not just Matthew gives the command
and Mark gives the example,
but there is spiritual significance attached
to the cup itself.
- And I was going to go there next
is that yes, there's an example that Jesus did it this way,
but at what point did you stop and say,
this is more than just merely an example,
this stands out as something that's very important
that we follow this example.
There is a spiritual significance behind doing it this way.
- Well, when you go to Luke's account, for example,
in Luke 22 and verse 20,
likewise, he also took the cup after supper saying,
this cup is the new covenant in my blood
which is shed for you.
We see that literally Jesus took the cup,
and he said this cup is the new covenant.
It is the New Testament in my blood.
Now, of course, when we consider what Jesus did
on the cross, three things occurred,
his body was given, his blood was shed,
and a covenant, a new covenant was ratified.
And in the Lord's supper, we find Jesus placing
spiritual significance to recognize
each of those three events.
The bread represents his body that was given,
the fruit of the vine
which represents his blood that was shed,
and the cup represents the new covenant
that was ratified by the blood of Christ.
- The covenant and the blood are not the same thing,
they have an inseparable relationship.
In other words, the covenant would not have been in force
without the shedding of Christ's blood.
But the covenant itself was not the blood.
- That's exactly right.
Often, folks who want to defend individual cups
will say that the fruit of the vine
is the same thing as the cup,
that the cup
that Jesus took was really the contents
and not the container, that's the significance
and that's the argument.
But if that's the case, you have the fruit of the vine
representing two different things.
You have the fruit of the vine representing the blood
and the covenant and that is insinuating
that the blood and the covenant are the same thing.
And that's simply not the case.
There is a distinction that God made
throughout the Old Testament, the old covenant,
between the covenant itself and the blood that ratified it.
And so it is with the new covenant,
Jesus had a covenant that would be ratified
that would provide forgiveness of sins,
but he would also
ratify that covenant by the shedding of his blood,
and the blood that ratified the covenant
is not the same thing as the covenant itself.
- That's right, and you know,
Jesus never used words on accident,
and neither did the apostles.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
it's the breath of God.
And so there are no words in the Scripture
that are there incidentally or by accident,
the Spirit chose them.
And I would challenge anybody
that wants to study this issue,
go through all four accounts of the Lord's supper
and read them very carefully.
And you will never find either of these statements.
You will never find the statement,
this cup is my blood, and you will never find the statement
that this fruit of the vine is the new covenant.
- That's a good point, that's a good point.
And I think that shows the wisdom of God
in how he designed a memorial that would represent
the covenant and the blood, two mutually
dependent items.
The blood that ratified the covenant,
the covenant was dependent upon the blood of Christ,
and without the blood of Christ, there would be no covenant.
- Right.
- And without a covenant
the blood of Christ would not
satisfy its purpose.
And so in the cup of the Lord,
we have two elements.
We have the fruit of the vine
and the container that holds it.
And they are mutually dependent upon one another.
- Dell, it's fairly easy to see,
especially if you've been raised
to observe the Lord's supper
that the bread represents the body of Christ,
there's an obvious symbolic relationship there,
the fruit of the vine represents the blood.
But for someone who may have never really thought
about this, what relationship would
everybody drinking from a container
have to do with the new covenant?
By the way, new covenant doesn't refer to the Bible,
it refers to what's revealed in the New Testament,
and that is the agreement between us and God.
But what is the significance in one container
a congregation sharing that and the new covenant?
- Well, that's a good question, that's a good point.
And answering the question,
actually reveals a beautiful picture.
Like with every other aspect of the Lord's supper,
you have in the loaf and the bread,
and we haven't talked much about the bread, but
we have the unity of the loaf representing
the unity of the body of Christ,
typically, physically, and spiritually speaking.
But when a congregation of believers meet
and they worship the Lord and remember what he has done,
not only are they reminded of the unity
that should exist among the body,
but when the cup of blessing is shared,
we are reminded, not only of the sacrifice of Christ,
but in the same agreement, in the same covenant relationship
that we all have with not only God but with each other,
sharing in the blessings that are provided in the cup.
- The communion is a common union,
it is a joint participation.
You know, I think that's the root of the issue
going back a number of generations now
is that I think somewhere along the way,
we allowed ourselves to lose sight of what communion is.
And there are those that have the view
that communion is merely something between me and God,
it's something I perhaps by myself could even partake of,
because it's just a special moment between me and the Lord.
Well, spiritually he is present when we commune,
but communion is about a congregation of people
coming together and sharing something, isn't it?
- That's exactly right.
And that's why the emphasis is placed upon the church
coming together and staying together when they commune,
that it's not just something you do with the Lord,
but it's something that you do with other Christians.
In Acts 20 and verse seven, it says,
upon the first day of the week.
Now, often churches of Christ go to that
and use that as an example to show that the
Lord's supper is to be done upon the first day of the week,
that is an example and rightly so.
But equally emphasized in that passage
in Acts 20 and verse seven, it says,
and the disciples came together.
And so the communion is a joint participation
we don't do by ourselves between us and God or heaven,
but between us and the brethren,
our church family.
- One argument that we made once upon a time
and I've heard many times since
is, well, if this were the case,
why would all Christians in the world
not have to share one loaf and one cup?
But communion is a congregational activity,
because for one thing, the only organized
and visible manifestation of the church
operating in joint activity is the congregation.
There's nothing larger than each local congregation.
And so, you know, when the Lord said this do
in remembrance of me, and we see in the book of Acts
where the church came together and did this,
and also as Paul refers to it in Corinth,
this was something that each congregation
came together to do and each congregation
is to follow the pattern within itself.
- That's right.
And when we see the institution of the passover supper
years ago, we see that that was a supper
that, yes, the whole nation observed it,
but it was actually observed on a household level.
- That's right and God said one lamb per house.
And if they had more people than could consume the lamb,
they were to go somewhere else.
- Don't change the meal to fit the house.
- You change the circumstance to fit the pattern.
- That's exactly right. - That's right.
And unfortunately not just in regard to this issue,
but many issues, what we see today
are people trying to change the pattern
in order to fit the circumstance
or to agree with modern religion,
ideas of religion, or the modern culture.
But Jesus said when he instituted the Lord's supper,
and he went through all of these actions with his disciples,
he commanded, he said, this do in remembrance of.
He didn't say do something like this,
he didn't say, I'm giving you an idea
and you can take this and develop upon it,
he said, I'm setting an example.
You do what I have done with you going forward.
- And I might just add here
to come back to where we began,
this was a very difficult change for us.
We loved the congregation we were attending.
But we had to study the Scriptures.
Proverbs 3:5 where it says, trust in the Lord
with all thine heart, lean not on thine own understanding,
Proverbs 14:12 says, there's a way that seemeth right
unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
And we had to put the Lord first
and what his will was, what his way was.
- That's right.
- And as difficult as it was,
we understood that when we learn the truth,
it was going to bring about a change
in some of our relationships and how we worship.
- That's right.
Well, we're out of time.
God bless, you, brother, and thanks for joining us today.
- Thank you so much.
- We'll be back in just a moment.
Saying in first Thessalonians two in verse five that he
didn't use flattering words nor a cloak of covetousness.
But yet, preachers week after week
come into our living rooms with their hand out.
We don't expect you to fund our ministry,
or to pay to hear the gospel.
Therefore Let the Bible Speak is different.
This program is brought to you by a local congregation
of the Church of Christ in your community
who simply wanna reach out and spread
the truth of New Testament Christianity.
We thank you for watching Let the Bible Speak,
and we hope that you'll tell someone else about
this program and encourage them to see the difference.
- [Voiceover] Want to see today's study again?
Watch Let the Bible Speak any time.
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On your computer, tablet, or smartphone.
Go to letthebiblespeak.tv
and also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.
- Our guest today has been brother Jimmy Cating.
We appreciate you, brother Cating, for being with us today.
We hope that you enjoyed our discussion.
And if you would like a printed transcript of it,
simply get in touch with us
and ask for the discussion on the Lord's supper
with brother Jimmy Cating
and we'll have that in the mail to you.
Thanks for spending your time with us today.
Hope you'll join me next week for Let the Bible Speak.
Until then, God bless you.
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