>> Okay, let's get started.
Good morning everyone, or good afternoon depending,
if you're on the East Coast.
Welcome to the 43rd session of the Office
of Professional Services and Human Capital Office Hours.
My name is Barry Nelson.
I am a customer account manager, and we are broadcasting live
in Auburn, Washington, just south of Seattle,
about 50 miles south of Seattle.
Some preliminary garbage that I need to get out.
Office Hours is an open forum for federal customers
to ask contracting questions and learn the various ways
to purchase using GSA resources and tools.
Office hours are held on the second Thursday of every month.
This month, we will be talking about the NAICS codes
for professional services orders as an introduction,
and our speaker will be subject matter expert
and senior contracting officer, Brad DeMers.
We did nominate Brad for a Golden Globe Award,
but he actually lost to Oprah Winfrey.
Sorry about that, Brad.
Maybe next time.
>> Thank you, Barry.
>> If you have questions during the session, please ask them
in the chat box, and we will answer them as we receive them
or ask your questions at the end of the session
when we open the line.
We are determined to provide the best contracting tools
and resources necessary to help you simplify
and make your purchasing requirements less painful.
Again, welcome, and let's get started
with the Golden Globe nominee, Brad DeMers.
>> Why thank you.
Thank you, Barry, for that fine introduction.
Yes, I didn't win the Golden Globe Awards,
but Barry did, of course.
Barry always wins the Golden Globe Awards.
He even beats out to Oprah Winfrey.
Anyhow, before we get started, of course, first of all,
welcome to FSS Professional Services NAICS Issues,
where we're going to get into the weeds
of NAICS codes at the order level.
Just a quick background about myself.
I've been a contracting officer since the turn-of-the-century.
That sounds like a long time, but it was --
you know, turn-of-the-century was only, what?
18 years ago.
So I've been a contracting officer
for a little over 17 years.
I cut my teeth as 1102, it's the Department
of Navy Acquisition Intern Program.
I moved over to GSA, where I've been a lead contracting officer
for the Multiple Awards Schedules Program.
I did a stint in telecommunications,
doing operational contracting there.
That was a lot of fun, but my present work,
my present work includes providing acquisition subject
matter expertise in all contractual issues relating
to mass orders for professional services, be it training,
consultation, and social media on Interact.GSA.gov,
and I get to do what I love to do.
A lot of operational officers, when they have a stack
of requisitions on their desk, they don't always have time
to study every case and every see every new change in the FAR
and get in the weeds, NAICS issues,
like we're going to get into today.
So I'm lucky, folks.
I get to do what I love to do, and here we go.
Enough about me, right?
Enough about me already.
Who put a nickel in Brad?
Anyway, let's move on here and get started.
And again, before I get started, what I want to say before we get
through this, I want to quote a Chinese proverb.
I don't know if it was Confucius or somebody.
The proverb is he who ask question is fool
for five seconds.
He who never ask question is fool forever.
So keep that in mind, and yes, we have a lot of people on here,
but, you know, do ask questions at the end.
That's my favorite part.
Hopefully, I don't get stumped
and I can answer them all, but we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
[ Inaudible Speech ]
A little bit of housekeeping.
I'm sorry, Barry.
What's that?
>> That was a great addition to the presentation.
>> Okay, thank you, Barry.
Could someone mute Barry, please.
No, I'm kidding, Barry.
Anyway, housekeeping here.
If you want to download the presentation,
you can see this slide deck right at the bottom there.
You can download the files.
At one point in the presentation,
we're going to be moving over to the new SBA regulations
affecting task and delivery order contracts.
That's about the only place we'll move,
we'll be talking directly on that piece, the PSS,
NAICS codes, SIN table.
That is -- it shows all the --
you can see the plethora of NAICS codes per SIN there.
Anyway, so that's how you download the documents,
housekeeping, have questions, click the Q&A section
on the right side of your screen.
Type your question in the comment box and then click send.
And then, Barry, I will ask you to pipe in really quick.
We only see the questions right away.
So when people send those, not everyone sees them, I believe,
until we move them over.
Right? I believe that's the case.
Barry, if you could pipe in on that.
I believe that's the case, correct?
>> If they send it to all, then it goes to all.
If they send it individually,
I think John can chime in on that one.
>> Brad, no one will see it until you respond.
So we'll do it.
We'll send it out --
>> Okay, got it.
>> When you answer questions.
>> Yeah, I just want folks to know
that no one will see their questions until we respond,
and I believe it remains anonymous everyone,
is that right John?
>> Yes.
>> Okay, so there you go, folks.
Ask away. No one's going to see, right,
that you're asking a question anyway.
So that's enough about that.
Okay, webinar materials.
Today's webinar materials will be emailed to attendees,
including presentation webinars, Q&As.
Again, with this many folks on here.
It looks like we've got around 315 participants so far.
All questions, of course,
may not be answered during the session,
but we'll provide detailed Q&A responses within a week,
within a week of all --
you know, depending on how many we get.
So on and so forth.
For CLPs, to receive your CLP, you can follow this here.
Enter your email address, and you will receive a CLP
within two weeks of training.
And so here we go.
Let's get started here.
Let's get started.
First, we will discuss utilizing NAICS codes
at the FSS contract level and how that works.
FAR requirements, we'll move on to FAR requirements
and how FSS CO determines business size
or the FSS contract makes at the FSS contract level.
Remember that FTDS system limitations allow only one
business size per contract.
That's what the far requirement at 19102 [audio fades] states.
Only one size per contract, and that hasn't --
we'll see later on in the SBA final rules,
systems haven't been change yet to accommodate the final rules.
So what happens in that second one, FAR requirements?
Well, if anyone's of her face a requirement that has more
than one discipline, crosses multiple categories,
what you do?
Right? When the requirement has more than one NAICS code,
as of course, the professional services schedule.
I believe, don't quote me on the exact count,
I believe that the count is around 75, 77 NAICS codes
or something like 72 SINs and 77 NAICS codes.
I should have that exact number down, but I don't.
Sorry folks.
So definitely, right, there's more than one NAICS code.
So what you do?
Well FAR when 19.102(d) says when acquiring a product
or service that could be classified in two
or more industries with different sized standards,
the contracting officer shall apply the size standard
for the industry accounting for the greatest percentage
of the contract price.
That's no different for us.
You know, that's any procurement, right?
That's FAR 19.102(d).
You have to follow that for any procurement.
Federal supply schedule is no different.
We have to follow that at the contract level
when we assign the NAICS code for that contractor.
Our solicitations list all the special item numbers
and NAICS codes for SIN.
The contractors tell us when they come in with an offer,
they tell us which single NAICS code represents the primary
NAICS for what?
For anticipated sales out of the contract, right?
Remember, this is an IDIQ contract.
It covers a wide variety of services.
So they tell us which NAICS code they believe will anticipate the
preponderance of sales.
That is the NAICS code that is used
to determine the business size awarded in the contract.
Now we do verify the NAICS code claimed is commensurate
with the work done by the company, of, you know,
because different NAICS codes have different size standards,
especially the exceptions, right?
We all know about exceptions to NAICS codes.
I wish SBA wouldn't have done that to us,
but exceptions have a variety of different size standards.
For example, the environmental remediation NAICS code is a
500-employee-size standard versus the regular remediation,
which I believe is 15 million.
Anyway, we verify this, right?
We will look at this.
We don't just take their word for it.
If they come in and claim environmental remediation
as the primary anticipated sales
under their contract, we take a look.
We look at the representative samples of work they provide us.
We take a look at their website to review.
You know, if they say that they do environmental remediation,
and this is just an example, and they don't have any pictures
of back hoes and such on their website,
that's an indication that, you know,
that they probably don't do environmental remediation
as a primary purpose of their work.
That doesn't mean they're prohibited, right?
Just because they don't have a backhoe on their website
from claiming that NAICS code.
All I'm saying is we do investigate that to make sure
that that is, in fact, the work that they're going to be doing.
Now onto the NAICS code at the order level.
Moving on to the NAICS code
at the order level, what will we look at?
We will look at SINs, NAICS per SIN.
Remember SINs are special item numbers, and what?
Determining the appropriate NAICS for the order,
appropriate NAICS for the order.
Take a look at the slide here.
This slide here, pretty straightforward, right?
You determine the SIN, and if it's more
than one NAICS code per SIN, we do have special item numbers
that have more than one NAICS code.
Then what you do?
Fall back to what?
FAR 19.102(d), right?
We determine the primary NAICS code for that particular SIN,
which then becomes the primary NAICS code for your order.
Remember, folks, what you can't do is you can't choose a NAICS
code that is not within the SIN.
We get those questions a lot.
Well, my NAICS code is this, and if it does not fit
under the special item number,
that represents the primary purpose of your order.
Then you cannot use that NAICS code, but rest assured,
the professional services schedule covers just
about every professional services that's sector 54,
right?
It's the 400-series NAICS code that covers just about every one
of those, and it covers other in NAICS codes, as well,
human resources and education and such.
Again, you can find that, all the NAICS codes
on that PSS SIN table from the latest solicitation that's
that one PSS SIN table, November 2017.
You can see all the NAICS codes there.
What do we have now?
What do we have when we get into the weeds of these NAICS codes?
We have order set-aside challenges.
We'll get into this, the contractor size
and the FSS contract versus the contractor size in the order,
and of course, we'll talk about size protests.
The order set-aside challenges, order set-aside challenges.
The take away from this slide is that the NAICS
in the order may differ.
It may be different, right?
There might be a different size standard than the NAICS used
to determine business size in the contract.
Remember way back when we were determining the NAICS
for contracts?
Remember that?
Well, the order-level NAICS might be different.
So it might have a different size standard.
You can look at the contract in eLibrary.
That's www.gsaelibrary.gsa.gov.
And there, you can see the NAICS code utilized
to determine the business size for the contract.
Because of this issue, there may be size protests
of the order award.
We're going to talk more about that, but first,
let's look at the critical sentences FAR 8.405-5.
If you look at 8.405-5(b),
second sentence, what does it say?
Second sentence says, "For purposes of reporting,
and order placed with a small schedule contract,
an ordering agency may only take credit
if the awardee meets the size standard that corresponds
to the work performed.
Now contrast that with 8.405-5(b), last sentence.
"Ordering activity should rely
on the small business representations made
by schedule contractors at the contract level."
Although the contractor, right, and we have this contradiction
that could potentially happen.
Although the contractor may not be small in this example
for NAICS 541620, they are small under their FSS contract,
and therefore, small for each order under the contract,
under the contract, and I look at this as kind
of like the Flying Dutchman.
Remember that movie, the Flying Dutchman?
Remember what happens?
Part of the crew, part of the ship.
Remember that?
Remember that mantra, part of the crew, part of the ship?
Think of that in the same context.
Small for the contract, small for the order, right?
Small for the contract, small for the order.
While this perspective is certainly true regarding FPDS
system rule constraints, we will talk about regulations
and size protest case history later.
But what happens is in FPDS when you issue your order,
it defaults to size in the contract.
That field is grayed out.
The ordering level contracting officer,
the ordering agency contracting officer cannot change
that field.
There's that field CO size termination.
I don't know, depending on how your purchase order systems are.
Some purchase order systems have a modal window that bring
up FPDS, and you fill it out directly.
However, the size field is grayed out.
So it defaults, defaults, right?
Just like the crew on the Pirates
of the Caribbean's Flying Dutchman.
Small for the contract, small for the order.
Here is some suggested RFQ language.
I'm going to sort of sidetrack here and take a look
at whenever you're setting aside orders for a small business,
we have some suggestions to consider.
And first, explicitly state, explicitly state,
which SINs are required.
Now a lot of people who are accustomed
to using eBuy will say, Brad, I don't need to do that,
because whenever I issue a solicitation on eBuy,
it asks me which SINs.
It asks me which SINs, and yes, that is true.
That is true in the eBuy system that it asks you which SINs,
and yes, it -- the RFQ only goes out to and can only be seen
in the system, in the eBuy system, can only be seen
by those contractors who hold those SINs,
and if you're requiring that quotes be submitted
through eBuy, yes, it is true that only contractors who hold
that particular SIN or SINs can submit a quote on your order.
However, think of eBuy a little bit like Facebook.
When you post it on eBuy, there are companies who share it
with other companies, who share it with other companies,
and they do this for, you know, various reasons,
subcontracting mostly.
There are companies.
I won't name the companies' names
but they actually have a service that other companies sign up for
that their service provides all government opportunities,
all government opportunities.
That's what they do.
[ Audio Fades/Cuts Out ]
Then I have access to all eBuy RFQ information, whether
or not the contractor even has a schedule, right,
that can sign up for that service.
So I always tell people to be explicit.
Be explicit in that.
So that's why went off on that
for quite a while there, that first one.
State which SINs.
Second, state which SIN in NAICS code
from that SIN represent the primary purpose
of the requirement.
Remember, remember, you can only use NAICS codes from that sin.
You cannot use a NAICS code
which is not assigned to that SIN.
And finally, it is recommended to explicitly state your intent
of whether or not you will ask
for a size recertification for your order.
I've gotten in arguments with people who say, "Brad,
you don't have to go that length obviously, if it's silent,
you're not requiring a size recertification for the order."
But as you can see in these cases we'll talk about,
it is important for you to do this, to avoid any ambiguities
of whether or not you intended or implied
that you're setting aside at the --
I'm sorry, you're requiring a recertification
at the order level.
A lot of times, COs are used to saying, yeah,
you've got to be small in SAM.
You've got to be a small business, and we look at SAM.
Well, that could be misconstrued
as you're requiring a recertification for the order,
because you're saying we're going to look at SAM, and SAM,
in accordance with FAR 4.112 something, rather.
I can't remember that exact piece.
Contracts are required to recertify their size
and socioeconomic status any time, but at least once a year.
And we know with long-term contracts,
size in SAM does not match size of the contract,
if the contractor has subsequently changed size.
Remember, FAR 52.21928, right?
They don't change their size, except for merger acquisition.
They don't change their size on a long-term contract
until the option time, which is five years later.
So the SAM and the contract can differ.
Anyway, that was too much of a tangent.
You know, my daddy said to me, he said, "Son,
if you want to succeed in life, you must learn to convey clarity
of thought with economy of words."
And luckily, I work with someone.
I'm not going to name him.
He might be on this presentation,
but he is badgering me about having economy of words,
and I'm failing at my daddy's mantra.
So let's move on to the next slide,
make my daddy proud, shall we?
Here we go.
SBA size protests.
That's what everybody loves, right?
So let's talk about size protests at the order level.
What is this?
This is when an unsuccessful contractor submits a size
protest to SBA claiming the contractor awarded is not a
small business for your order.
Now let's take a look at this.
To be a valid protest, to be considered a valid protest,
it must be timely submitted, must be timely submitted, right?
And what does that mean?
One, at the time of FSS contract award, or two,
at time of FSS option, or three,
and this is what they always hang their hat on,
in response to an order level recertification request.
Okay? And listed here are several SBA Office appearings
and appeals cases, and they have one thing in common.
Each was dismissed as being untimely,
as it could not be proven
that the contracting officer explicitly required a size
recertification for the order.
And if you go and read those cases,
you'll see the protester was claiming that they did.
They did. Because it wasn't clear, because it wasn't clear,
because they hadn't had this training, and it wasn't clear.
Now not all of these are federal supply schedule cases,
but they still make the same point.
They're on IDIQs.
Moving onto the next slide here.
So let's bring this over.
John DeWolfe, please bring over the handout,
the new SBA regulations, when I say new, when I say new, yeah,
you know, they aren't brand-new, is the SBA final rule for task
and delivery order contracts became effective,
31 December, 2013.
And this rule promulgated various sections
of the Small Business Jobs Act of 2010, which is the act
that authorized order set-asides under multiple-award contracts,
like the federal supply schedule.
The take away on this page here, right, is in its preamble --
let me scroll down a little bit.
In its preamble, SBA discloses these massive changes
in regulation may take five years to implement,
and I like how they characterize as many as five years.
Well, guess what, folks?
We're on -- this will be the fifth year,
31 December 2018 will be the fifth year,
and so I won't comment on how long we all can place bets
of how far beyond the five years this will go.
But anyway, that is an interesting piece to point out.
It may take as many as five years.
Again, you know, hopefully by the end of this year,
our procurement systems will accommodate the
current regulations.
Now part of the process, right, part of that process, remember,
folks, we know systems need to be changed,
but it's always a catch-22, right?
You can't change systems and the massive funding that's going
to be required to change all these systems,
all these interdependent government systems.
Imagine the massive changes are going to be.
What this is going to result in is more
than one size per contract, and we can't change those.
We can't just fund something until when?
Until rules are promulgated, right?
So that's the first step.
They were promulgated in the 13 CFR, and now part
of the process is to promulgate the new SBA regulations
into the FAR, and that's that next part there.
Look for FAR -- look for status.
Look at the FAR open-case report.
I just looked this morning,
and they had pushed out to yesterday.
Yesterday, the FAR council, that's the status,
is that it's been forwarded on, and it's been extended
to yesterday, and so, you know, hopefully, folks,
this happens soon, but in the current environment,
today's environment, it's really tough
to get regulations through.
Executive order, the two-for-one, I don't know
if anybody's heard about that.
For everyone regulation that is implemented,
you've got to get rid of two.
You know, there's a lot of confusion
in the policy community over that, because, you know,
these regulations were based on statute, right?
And so, you have to promulgate the statute.
So that's the topic of another day.
Anyway, so look at the case 2014-002 to do the promulgation.
Now let's take a look at SBA regulation highlights impacting,
impacting the federal supply schedule.
And, okay, first of all, remember folks,
these regulation changes I'm showing you have not been
promulgated to the FAR yet.
The first one is FSS will only have one NAICS per SIN.
That's a huge change, especially if you look at that list,
you'll see SIN 874-4 as a plethora of SINs.
So GSA is diligently working on SIN consolidation
and more to come on that.
Again, although that's been promulgated in 13 CFR,
it hasn't been promulgated in the FAR yet.
So, you know, a lot of costs involved in something.
It has to be promulgated to the FAR, before we can actually --
or before we're required to implement it, right?
It's one of those catch-22s.
Again, this will be a significant change,
and I expect the FSS program will be given ample lead time
to comply.
Next, there will be multiple sizes per contract,
multiple sizes per contract, and if you look at that,
a concern must be the appled-size center
for each category.
So for each SIN.
So you could have contractors who are small for one SIN
and other than small for another SIN, right?
And then, these next two pieces are actually already reflected
in 8.405-5(b)2 second sentence.
Remember? Remember?
Contracting officer must select a single NAICS.
We got that.
With respect to an order issued against multiple-order contract,
an AC will only receive small business credit for goaling,
only if the business concerned awarded the order has
represented its status as small
for the underlying multiple-award contracts
for the same NAICS code as that NAICS code assigned
to the order.
So in a sense, right, the FAR 8.405-5 (b)2 already reflects
that, remember for the purpose of reporting order placed
for a small business schedule contractor
and ordering AC may only take credit
if the awardee meets a size that corresponds
to the work performed.
And then, finally, down here, down here,
finally down here is a recap of the OHA hearings.
And remember, right, that the take away from that is
that recommend down there,
it's clear that if the ordering agency contracting officer
intends to require the size certification
for an individual order,
the order solicitation must explicitly convey that.
While silence on recertification intent can be assured it is not
being sought, it is the best practice of the ordering CO
to clarify this intent in order RFQ.
Doing so removes any doubt to question whether
or not the order solicitation requires a size recertification
for that order.
I apologize, folks, I'm reading off the slide,
but I'm doing that to emphasize it.
Mr. DeWolfe, if you could be so kind
as to go back now to the solicitation.
If we could go back now.
So do we require a size recertification or not?
So what do we do?
What do we do?
Well, we have two choices, we either require recertification
for the order, or we do not.
Let's look at the details of each choice.
Stating in your RFQ that you will not require size
recertification for the order is the default, right?
Because it is in line with what?
FAR 8.405-5(b) last sentence.
However, however, you may face a size protest
when the contractor is small on the FSS, but other than small,
for the NAICS code in the order.
I can tell you that SBA area offices are not consistent
on their rulings.
We know of two such cases that resulted in opposite rulings.
However, SBA OHA decisions are consistent.
Success to prevail on a dismissal for untimeliness
in an SBA OHA ruling is likely.
However, technically, technically,
agency can't get small business credit
for FAR 8.405-5(b) second sentence, right?
Technically, you can't give business credit for that,
but due to FPDS system rule constraints,
the agency will get credit, right?
You can't not not get credit, and then moving
on to requiring size recertification
at the order level assures FAR 8.405-5(b) compliance,
as a company cannot be awarded who is small
on the FSS contract, but other than small, for the NAICS code
in the order, because you'd be asking
for a size recertification at the order level.
So they would not be able to submit a quote on your RFQ.
But keep in mind, keep in mind, there is potential
that a company who is other than small
on their FSS contract qualifies as small for that order
that you're asking them to recertify under, right?
That's a possibility.
If this company wins a task order,
the agency will not get small business credit
in the FPDS due to what?
Due to the rule constraints as FPDS defaults
to the FSS contract size.
Remember, small for the contract, small for the order.
So, so, until all our interdependent government
systems are modified
to accommodate the new regulations authorizing
set-asides for orders under FSS,
we will face these NAICS code challenges and have to deal
with them the best that we can.
And one more piece.
When I said that all of these SBA office hearings
and appeals decisions have been dismissed or denied,
based on timeliness, remember, if the contracting officer,
that's you, if the contracting officer
or SBA itself files the protest, if the losing contractor,
or the disgruntled contractor, goes to SBA and convinces them
to file the protest on their behalf,
or the contracting officer says, you know, this isn't right.
I'm going to follow protest, you know, to SBA, a size protest,
the timeliness goes out the door.
We, the government, is not subject to the same timeliness
as the same timeliness regulations.
We're not subject to that.
Remember? There was three times that you can protest the size
at FSS contract establishment, at FSS contract option time,
or any other, you know, required 5221928 recertification time,
or most importantly, at time of order.
Size level required recertification,
if the contracting officer requires it in an order.
Those are the only times that you can do
that within, what is it?
Fifteen days or 10 days, I can't remember the exact timeframe.
It's in the regulations, but that timeframe does not exist
for either SBA
or the contracting officer to file that.
So keep that in mind.
Keep that in mind.
I hope this webinar has given you the knowledge
to make informed choices when deciding whether or not
to require size recertification for your individual order.
So let's go here for a quick knowledge check,
quick knowledge check.
Recap some key points of the presentation
with some knowledge check cues.
Cue number one is the FSS contractor limited
to the single-primary NAICS code shown
for their contract in GSA's eLibrary?
Of course, the answer is no, is no.
Remember, when awarding the FSS contract,
we determine the primary NAICS for size.
We determine the primary NAICS
for size determination purposes only.
If the contractor is awarded more than one NAICS code
with more than one SIN, and they will be awarded more
than one NAICS code if they're awarded more than one SIN,
you know, potentially, because special item numbers could have
different NAICS codes.
Then you certify which NAICS they anticipate the most
sales under.
Remember that?
A lot of people come in.
I've had a lot of questions where they take a look
at eLibrary and they see a NAICS code, and they go, oh,
they're limited to only that NAICS code.
And, no, they're not.
They're only limited to the SINs that they have.
That's their only limitation.
They can provide quotes
on any special item number that's been awarded
under their contract, even
if that special item number has different NAICS codes
than what shows they were awarded
for size purposes in eLibrary.
Number two is the ordering contracting officer free
to choose any NAICS code for an order?
And of course, the answer is no.
You have to determine the SIN representing the --
remember, you determine the SIN.
Then you determine the NAICS from that SIN.
You cannot bring in a NAICS outside of that SIN.
Let's see, the next question here.
Can the ordering contracting officer require a size
recertification for an order?
Yes, but remember, due to FPDS system limitations,
the order defaults to the contractor's size.
Small for the contract, small for the order.
And finally, can an unsuccessful contractor file a size protest
for FSS order?
Yes, however, I went off on a long discussion
about the timeliness of that.
So there it is.
There you have it, knowledge check,
and these next slide decks,
and you can take a look at these later.
These are purely for your convenience
to have a variety of web links.
One of my faves is that second
to last bullet point there FAR 12 versus FAR 8.4, who wins?
That's my favorite because, well, I'm being selfish.
I wrote it.
I had fun writing that.
That was very enjoyable.
FAR 12 becomes akin to Sauron's ring in Lord of the Rings.
Yes, I had fun writing that.
Anyway, oh, and there's PSS order NAICS codes
and set asides.
We have a, you know, blog post on that, which is, we ended up,
from that blog post, somebody wanted a webinar made
out of that, and thus, there you have it, folks.
That's why we're here.
From that blog post, additional web resources,
CALC is really awesome if you haven't --
if you're doing price evaluation.
I'm sorry, if you're doing price estimation for --
to come up in IGE, CALC is a great way.
You can also, you know, bounce prices off of that.
We have webinars on that.
MAS News shows all our training is offered throughout FAS.
Anyway, I don't want to go too much on.
I want to get to my favorite part, which is the questions.
Questions.
Okay, so let me -- give me a second here, folks.
Let me see that -- hold on a second.
Are you -- yeah, pull that over.
Are you able to share with us written guidance to distinguish
which type of procurement should be pursued, i.e., supply,
service or construction, non-DoD versus DoD?
Really, that just comes into play
in your acquisition plan, right?
That would come into play in your acquisition plan,
and certainly, you can email those type of questions
to Professional Services GSA,
and we can certainly help you further on that.
Next question, let me see.
Hold on a second.
It's not expanding for me very well.
Oh, next question, are PSS vendors required
to have the same NAICS code as specified in RFQ to participate?
And, in a sense, yes, they're required to have that NAICS code
as it relates to do they have a SIN?
Really, do they have the SIN, right?
So remember, you choose the SIN, and from that,
you choose the NAICS code.
So if they have the SIN, they have the NAICS code.
So, yes, they are required to have the NAICS code,
because they're required have SIN, remember?
SIN and the NAICS codes go together.
They form a symbiotic relationship.
Next question, NAICS at order level and reporting to FPDS.
Doesn't FPDS pull the NAICS that is on the FSS contract?
How do we report the NAICS code we used on the order in FPDS?
I get that question all the time.
Half of it is under OASIS, as well, and yes,
due to FPDS system limitations, and what I do is I tell people,
do you know that a description of the requirement, you know,
that place where we put IXOIX.
You know, this is not inherently governmental hieroglyphics.
You know, that code language everybody always puts in there.
You can put simply put the NAICS code
that you used for your SIN, right?
If it does not match the NAICS code
that the contractors was awarded for size purposes
in the contract, in their FSS contract,
you can put a NAICS code in the body of your description
of requirement, if you're concerned about it.
I mean, everybody realizes that there are system limitations,
and the NAICS code defaults.
But if you're concerned about it, you would simply state
in there that this is the NAICS code that was awarded,
and FPDS defaults to the IDIQ contract.
Here's one that was awarded.
So yes, you can do that.
Next question, if an incorrect NAICS is assigned and awarded,
can a modification be issued to correct it?
And that can be tricky, but yes, you can modify.
You can modify, but you have to talk to FPDS folks
in exactly how to do that,
because each agency has its own purchase order systems
and how they interface with FPDS.
So there's not a one-size-fits-all answer
on that.
But yes, like anything in the contract, it can be modified,
and in fact, you may end up just modifying the body, right?
The modification will show.
This is a modification to change the correct NAICS code
or to document the correct NAICS code,
because the system defaults to the wrong NAICS code,
something to that effect.
Next question, when the FAR updates the new simplified
limits, what will happen to NAICS code size standards?
The size standards in the NAICS codes have nothing to do
with the simplified acquisition procedure, which is going
up to 250,000, and which is awesome,
and the most beautiful thing that has been done in the NDAA,
the National Defense Authorization Act 2018,
section -- I should know it, but I don't.
Section 30 something, 306, 806.
I can't remember.
Anyway, it's changed the micro purchase to 10 grand.
Isn't that awesome?
So that one doesn't -- that doesn't affect NAICS codes
at all, those size standards don't affect NAICS codes.
NAICS codes, small-business-size standards are what they are.
Okay, next question, are there good websites to assist one
in choosing the correct NAICS and SIN?
Yes, download right, download the PSS SIN table,
and you can see right there, it shows the NAICS person,
and you can always email that email
on the last slide deck there.
You can always email questions about scope, and we'd be happy
to answer questions about scope
of where you think your requirement fits,
which SIN you believe it fits under.
But if you do a -- we kindly ask that you do a little bit
of research on your own and take a look at special item numbers.
You know, you can do a process of elimination.
For example, if it's a follow-on requirement,
and I teach a BPA webinar, and if you're moving
from your own IDIQ over to a GSA BPA, which is a beautiful thing,
because you don't have --
no funding and no ceiling, right, for BPAs.
It's way better to have your own IDIQ.
If you had a certain NAICS code under that procurement,
then you would look for that same NAICS code
under the PSS SIN table.
That's a process of elimination.
You go, okay, let's look for that NAICS code,
and there may be more than one special item number
with the same NAICS code.
That's possible.
And look to see where you believe that your work fits,
the primary purpose of your work, where it fits,
and then you can email that email,
and we'd be happy to assist you.
Sorry, folks, I'm going and I'm trying to get --
can we have a copy of the PowerPoint?
Yes, that is, if you look at the housekeeping slides
that the very beginning, you can download a copy
of the PowerPoint, and they will also be emailed.
Next one, where are you providing a download
of the slides within this webinar?
And that is under today's --
if you look under today's presentation, you can get that,
but rest assured, as I answered the previous one,
you'll get a copy of everything an email.
Next, if an incorrect NAICS is assigned and awarded
for an FSS contract, can it be corrected?
We already answer that one.
Yes, it can.
Okay, next one, this is a long one here.
Hold on a second.
When conducting a small business set-aside
under PSS CORP can you require recertification
from a contractor?
Only if the size standard associated with their NAICS code
at the overall contract level is greater
than the size standard associated -- hold on.
Where did it go?
Just a minute.
Sorry. Hold on.
Hold on. I know what they're asking here,
I'm just reading their question.
So they're saying that, for example,
okay, they give an example.
For example, if a contractor had a NAICS code
with 20 M size standard, and the overall PSS 00 CORP level
at the, you know, at the contract level,
but you're completing your order with a SIN
with NAICS -size standard of 15 million,
then contractor would need to recertify?
Well, not necessarily, just because --
I know what you're saying.
Just because they are shown as a $20 million contractor, right?
Just because they're shown as a $20 million contractor
on the schedule doesn't necessarily mean
that they were other than small for a $15 million NAICS code.
Right? Remember, we take the principal NAICS code
at the federal supplies contract level,
we take a primary NAICS code and we determine
which NAICS code represents the principal anticipated sales,
and happen to be, in your example,
a 20 million NAICS code.
Well, that doesn't mean that the contractor is necessarily an
other than small business for the $15 million NAICS code.
And I've and asked this question to policy before, right?
We had a long discussion in regards to this.
What you're asking is, what you're asking is, can you pick
and choose who you determine can recertify?
Right? In other words, if I have a requirement
or NAICS code 541611.
That's a $15 million NAICS code, right, $15 million size.
I will, all those who show NAICS code 541611
or a lower equal-to-or-lower-size standard
NAICS in their contract, right?
This is what your RFQ would say.
If those who show -- the primary purpose
of my order is NAICS [inaudible] 501601,
$15 million sized standard, and you, contractor,
or showing a $20 million size standard in your contract,
you have to recertify, right?
You have to recertify.
This is very problematic.
Although it makes sense of as an example,
it makes pragmatic sense, it is problematic, because the act
of recertification, you have to recertify at that moment
in time for that order.
Well, that contractor,
who's showing a $20 million size standard
in their federal supply schedule contract, may have been other
than small for the $15 million NAICS code
at the time there FSS contract was awarded and semantically,
at the time they submitted an offer
on their FSS contract, right?
Some FSS contracts a year to award.
So that could've been like six years ago, right?
Or 5-1/2 years ago, because option time hasn't come yet.
So it becomes problematic to require a size recertification
for only certain contractors.
I believe, and policy believes --
I had a long discussion with policy about this.
They believe you would lose a protest,
because you'd be discriminating.
You'd say, well, I'm only required a size recertification
for certain contractors.
Well, what about the contractor who wins?
If you had asked them to recertify,
even though they show the 15-million-size standard
that you need in their contract.
If they recertify, maybe they're other than small today.
You follow me?
So that is problematic.
Love your example, but if you're going to ask
for size recertification at the order level,
you have to ask for everyone.
All are required to recertify at the order level.
You cannot pick and choose and only make some do it.
Anyway, but there's no case precedent
on that particular scenario.
So why don't you, you know, be bold and try it?
See what happens.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that.
That was Brad talking.
It wasn't GSA talking, but a lot
of innovation has happened out of risk taking.
You know, eventually, that's where the regs are going, right?
That's where the regs are going anyway.
So let's move on to the next one.
When exercising an option, is optional for the CO to ask --
oh, is it optional for the CO to ask for a recertification
of the contract's business size?
When exercising an option, I'm assuming,
I'm assuming this question is referring
to an option exercise on an order, okay?
Because obviously, in accordance of 5221928,
we have to recertify size at contract, the emphasis,
contract level at option exercise time,
which is every five years.
So I'm assuming, and who's moving my questions?
Okay, never mind.
Sorry, I'm being a derp.
I found them.
Okay,so again, I'm assuming this is an order, right?
An exercise [inaudible] order.
Now I will give you a -- some STDS inside speak,
and if the contractor, at the moment in time, first of all,
can you ask for a recertification at that time?
And the answer is yes, you can,
provided that you explicitly stated your intent
to do so, in your original RFQ.
I don't know why you would, you know,
why you would do that, but you can.
Now here is one of the system glitches that has existed
since the dawn of time.
Whenever, and this goes for any modification.
Not just an option-exercise modification for your order.
Whenever you do any type of modification for your order,
and that modification is reflected in FPDS,
whenever you do that modification
for that order, what does FPDS do?
Guess what, folks?
It pings as far as the size and socioeconomic status.
Remember, that's grayed out in the order.
You can't touch that, right?
What it does when you issue a mod.
It pings the federal supply schedule contract
at that moment in time.
It pings it to see what size and what socioeconomic status are
in that federal supply schedule contract at that moment in time.
Hence, if you modify your federal supply schedule order
today, right now, and let's say that your contract,
when you issued it, it was a small business, right?
You issued it as a small business, set aside,
you work through small business.
You go to issue a mod to that order, and subsequently,
after you have issued your order,
the federal supply schedule contractor had recertified its
size at the contract level.
Usually, again, it's that option time every five years.
When you issue that order, that modification to your order
in FPDS, it will ping the contract size,
even though your size for your order is what it is for the life
of your order unless your order goes beyond five years,
you are also subject to 5221928, and so your size is what it is
for your order, right?
Legally, and that is what it is, and if you doubt me,
then go ask the highest court in the land.
You can go look at the Kindamore [assumed spelling] case,
and they explicitly stated that an order is a contract.
An order is a contract.
FAR says that.
So a lot of people treat options
like a new contract, and it's not.
But anyway, for all intents and purposes, that long,
long answer, yes, you can do it, and be aware that it's going
to happen anyway, right?
It's going to happen anyway if the contract is changed to other
than small when you exercise your order option.
From that point forward, it's going to be other than small,
for your order, from that point forward.
Now it's been an improvement, folks.
Years ago, it changed to other than small for your entire order
from the very beginning, right?
So it's been an improvement.
Anyway, that was, yeah, that was a long question, a long answer.
Let's see, next one, does the GSA CO do the mod
to correct the -- does the GSA CO do the mod
to correct the improperly assigned NAICS code?
The answer is no.
If you're talking about improperly assigned NAICS code
at the contract level, yes, we would do that.
But not for your order.
Remember, in order is a contract you ordering CO are
in charge of your order.
We will certainly help you, of course,
but we will not modify your order.
Next question, I'm a criminal investigator investing a
contract fraud for DHS.
Oh, this is a good one.
So my experience
with contracting is fairly limited basic,
other than taking a course in contracting.
Are there quick reference guides to contracting
and NAICS code specifically?
I've already downloaded the PDFs for this training.
And there's, we don't really have slip sheets
for this in-depth training, is far as NAICS codes.
Really, the quick guide, you'd be dealing
with the contracting officer anyway, and so,
that's about the best I can answer that one.
I apologize.
We don't have any quick reference guides to this,
but if my colleague is listening in today,
then maybe he can do me a solid and take note of that.
It might be something that, you know, that we can work on.
So thank you.
Thank you for that question.
Next question, if a contract -- and w've run out of time, folks.
But anyway, I'm going to -- if you don't mind,
I'm going to do two more questions,
and I'm literally taking them in order here.
If a contractor -- actually, I'm going to do one,
two, three -- well, no.
I wanted to get to -- anyway, I'm sorry, folks.
Let's just move on here, and then I'll end.
I want to respect your time.
If a contractor is a large business
under the NAICS code used for the award
under their FSS contract, right, if they are --
that question right there.
They can still compete under SB set asides if they are a SB
under a specific order SIN NAICS code, correct?
Yes, they can, but only
if you require a size certification for the order.
Although, if they are then awarded the order,
FPDS will default their FSS NAICS,
which will still show them as a large business, correct?
And you are correct there,
only if you require a size recertification for the order,
because, and especially, if you're --
and I suggest you do this whatever you do it,
I suggest you use eBuy to set aside your orders, because then,
only do contractors who are small businesses,
only will they see only those contractors will see,
who have been awarded small business.
If you're going to recertify at the order level, then,
of course, you would have to require that in the order.
A contractor who is other than small cannot bid on set-asides,
unless a contractor who's other than small
in their GSA contract, cannot just say, well, gee,
I'm small for this NAICS code.
Song going to go ahead and submit a bid on it.
They can't do that, because when the agency awards it, of course,
they would be awarding to a small business,
and then you would absolutely see protests,
because the losing contractors would see that they're other
than a small business.
So rather than face those protests,
you would recertify size at the order level.
Okay, folks, we're out of time.
I went three minutes over.
So I'm going to wrap it up.
I believe this was only one hour,
unless I can continue on --
>> Hey, Brad.
>> Referees, referees, tell me.
What's that?
>> You can keep answering questions,
as long as people are here.
>> Okay, I can keep going.
I'd like to keep going.
So sorry, folks, if you only thought this was the last hour,
you don't know me.
So here we go.
Okay, hold on a second.
Something's in my way now.
>> Hold on, Brad.
>> Okay, sorry folks.
Bear with me.
Those who don't want to stay and listen
to me babble, feel free to go.
You get your CLP.
Anyway, I'm going to continue on for those
who are willing to stay.
And I will try to live my daddy's mantra.
Combine clarity of thought with economy of words.
Okay, will the thresholds currently in place
for the requirements in which SCA and DBA applies change
as a result of the new dollar value increase
under the new guidance?
That is a good question.
I did not see that.
In other words, will SCA move
from a micro purchase threshold of 2500 to 10,000?
And will DBA move from the current micro purchase threshold
of 2000 up to 10,000?
And I did not see that in the regulations.
So those thresholds, as far as I know, are remaining unchanged.
As far as I know.
I could be wrong on that.
Let's see, next question.
If you modify the NAICS code after award,
wouldn't that present a competition issue?
Can that be protested?
And sure, absolutely.
And we're talking about order level now.
If you suddenly modify the NAICS code, and especially
if you either modify it to a NAICS code
that changes the size standard, then, you know,
that could especially present a protestable issue.
Anyway, next one, next one.
What about the PSE?
I noticed that when reviewing the vendor's SAM,
a lot of them do not have the PSE.
Are there PSE-assigned cross references with NAICS?
And yes, there is, and in fact, I have --
if you look at it at the PSS NAICS codes on the slide deck,
I have a blog post on that, and there is another blog post
that links to choosing the right PSE,
and the PSS SIN table also shows the PSE codes.
Next one, will the handouts also be emailed?
Yes, everything you see under today's presentation block,
you can download them now, but those will be emailed.
Okay, good point.
I don't know if this is a comment or question.
I'll read it anyway.
Good point about doing
and documenting the FSS scope determination first,
meaning pick the right SIN.
Wrong SIN or schedule is protestable.
I have seen ordering officers doing NAICS code shopping,
where they select a NAICS only to get a size.
And good point, very good point on this question.
No, you can't do NAICS code shopping.
In fact, that's what we really teach when I do my OASIS.
That's a multiple-award contract GSA has.
When I do the OASIS training, we discuss that in depth.
That you need to pick the NAICS code
that represents the primary purpose of the order.
GAO just did a study on this.
It's available.
I can't remember exactly what you Google,
but they just did a study on NAICS codes, and most of them,
their study found that the NAICS code's appeals were dismissed.
But it was problematic enough, or thought it
to be problematic enough, that they did a study on it,
and you can go read all about that.
In fact, John, make a note when we do this next one.
That would be a great handout to provide, and I will download --
John, if you could remind me, please.
I'm sorry, you're not my secretary.
In fact, everybody else's secretary, really.
Anyway, that was a good one.
Okay, let's see.
Next is the SBA may modify the NAICS limits,
and future selection NAICS will be based
under the new limits have changed.
Think that's a comment, and yes.
Yes, whenever SBA modifies the new NAICS codes,
then whenever there is a modification
to incorporate those new NAICS codes,
those are the NAICS code you use.
I believe that was a comment.
I'm not 100 percent.
Okay, does anyone -- does anyone know
when the new [inaudible] micro levels will go into effect?
And if you go to -- if you go to the FAR open case report,
and you can look at that, and that is FAR case --
you can write this down.
FAR case 2018-004, and the status is the FAR principals
on 12-27-2017, FAR principals opened the case,
and the final rule, FAR DAR staff processing.
Anyway, that's been processed as we speak,
but I told somebody check with your legal,
because it's law, right?
It's law. Just because it hasn't been promulgated FAR doesn't
mean you can't use it, but I've had lots of discussion
with other people, you know, how it's promulgated to the FAR,
and how you operate within it, are different matters,
but it depends on the, you know, what your legal has to say.
You know, that is a pretty straightforward statute, right?
Micro purchase threshold's change to 10 grand.
I had a question the other day about open-market items
and concerns, and I said, well, go talk to your legal to see
if you can use the new micro purchase threshold.
You know? It doesn't mean you can, because at the end,
it hasn't been promulgated to the FAR yet, but it's a law.
So that is a legal question.
Talk to them, and hopefully you have an innovative legal that's
willing to take some risks
for within the best interests of the taxpayer.
Okay, what do we got here?
Will you list all the possible NAICS under each SIN
in GSA eLibrary, so you don't have to consult the table?
And there has been, in eLibrary, if you go look.
I don't think it's been updated for a long time,
but there is the ability to look
up a spreadsheet that has them all.
Anyway, it's -- I wish eLibrary listed it.
If you go to SIN, and it lists the NAICS.
That is a work in process of many things that we need
to change in our customer-facing systems,
and that is absolutely one of them.
Next one, why can't GSA just assign the small
or other small status at the SIN level.
Absolutely, that's what's going to happen, because remember,
when we look at the new SBA regulations affecting
multiple-award schedules contracts, what was one
of the biggest changes?
For schedules the concern must meet the apple besides standards
for each category or SIN, right?
So that is going to happen, but it's going to take a long time,
but wouldn't that be a beautiful thing?
Would that be a beautiful thing?
You go on and you see what this contractor size is.
So the contractor will be a different size, potentially,
a different size for every special item number
in their contract, but imagine all
of the interdependent governmental systems that have
to change to accommodate that.
But yes, that is the goal and will be accommodated, hopefully,
you know, before, you know,
before the light rail link makes it to Federal Way, Washington.
That's where I live.
I live a stone's throw from the light rail,
alleged light link station.
And so, that's supposed to happen by, I don't know,
29 years from now or something.
No, it shouldn't take nine years for the --
to change, but it is in the works, and everyone knows
about it, and rest assured, it is in the works.
Next, also will the new SAT and micro levels apply
to all agencies are just DoD?
I believe the new SAT applies to all agencies.
If I'm mistaken, I will correct myself,
but looking at the synopsis,
it says under the FAR open-case report, implement section 805,
806, in 1702(a) of the NDA FY 2018, section 805.
Increases MPT to 10 grand and limits use of convenience text
to more than da, da, da, da.
Section 805 increases SAT in section 102.
Anyway, it looks like it's to all agencies.
So hopefully, that is the case.
And I believe so.
Okay, next one.
Next one. In determining NAICS SIN, the primary purpose
of NAICS SIN, determining NAICS SIN the primary purpose could be
a lesser amount.
How do you make the NAICS determination?
Let's see, if determining the NAICS per SIN,
then the primary purpose NAICS SIN could be a lesser amount.
I'm sorry, you're either going to have
to rephrase that question.
I'm unsure what it -- what you're asking there.
I apologize.
You always make the NAICS determination, that last part
of the question, how do you make the NAICS determination?
You always make the NAICS determination based
on the NAICS, you know, first the SIN, special item number,
determine which SIN represents the principal purpose
of your order, primary purpose of your order,
and then if that SIN has more than one NAICS code,
then you determine which NAICS code
in that SIN represents the principal purpose of your order,
and in the case of SIN 874-4,
which has many different NAICS codes, with, you know,
different size standards,
and you could have a different size standard under that.
So, and it just dawned on me.
I think, oh, they're asking again.
Anyway, we'll come back to that.
Next, with the new micro purchase --
with the new micro going to 10,000, will we have
to still compete our requirements?
No, anything below the micro purchase threshold doesn't have
to be competed.
Again, you know, that micro purchase threshold hasn't been
promulgated into the FAR yet.
So I'm sure there's going to be, you know,
who knows exactly how that's going to be implemented,
but if I were doing a requirement today,
I would go seek legal's approval
to use micro purchase threshold, which is 10 grand.
That's what it says the law, and I would operate accordingly.
Of course, I'm the kind of CO who asks forgiveness.
I very rarely, if ever, ask for permission.
I think my bosses would rather I asked
for permission, but I am who I am.
Okay, the principal purpose NAICS could be a lesser
dollar amount.
Could be a lesser dollar amount.
Well, yes, of course.
I think I know what you're saying.
So the question is
if the principal purpose NAICS is a lower dollar amount,
then the contractor shows, and we had this question asked
in a different way before.
It was the 20 million versus $15 million example.
Remember that?
Yeah, if the contractor shows a $20 million NAICS code
in their schedule contract, and the order calls for a SIN
that the contractor has, calls for a SIN
that has a lower dollar NAICS code, yes, technically,
system wise, that contractor can compete,
because they're a small business,
they're a small business, for that order,
because they're small business.
Remember, small contracting small for the order.
And the only real way around that to keep them
from competing is to either explicitly state
that contractors -- here's what I've seen.
Okay, this is worth discussing a moment.
Here's what I've seen before.
And I've talked at length with this about agencies.
What they have done, I've seen someone put an RFQ.
We are going to verify.
We're going to verify.
This isn't a size recertification
at the order level.
However, the primary purpose of our order is a NAICS
that has a $15 million size standard.
If the NAICS shown, and if you, contractor, are, obviously,
you've got a pretty small business, number one,
on your schedule to compete for the order.
Rest number one.
That's the first gate.
And the second is, we are going to verify, not recertify,
we're going to verify that you're small
for this NAICS code in the order.
For those companies who show an NAICS code
on their GSA eLibrary, that is, a NAICS code that is
at $15 million or lower, no more verification needed.
For a contractor who shows a size of, you know,
shows a higher-size NAICS code on their GSA schedule contract,
you need to show us, you need to verify that you are small
for the NAICS code for our order
at the time your contract was awarded,
and either have the contractor show you that, or you would go
and leave it open for yourself to go
to the GSA schedule contracting officer to verify that,
because they would have, in the contract flyer,
they would have access to the picture,
the point in time of SAM.
And remember, you could look at historical records in SAM.
You would need to know from the contracting officer
which record was used to determine what the NAICS code --
you know, to determine the NAICS code on eLibrary.
To determine their size on eLibrary,
which SAM record was used for that purpose?
You'd need to know that from the contracting officer.
You can see that's a little bit of a convoluted, complicated way
of doing it, but it's key to that, is verification.
You're verifying.
You're not recertifying.
You can't look at the current SAM records, because then
that would be a de facto size recertification, right?
You can't say to those who have to have that second level
of verification that I'm going to look at your SAM today,
because that would be a de facto size recertification.
You're not doing that.
You're verifying that they were small,
just like the new SBA regs state, right?
Just like the SBA regs state.
A concern must apple size standard for each category.
It seeks an award as a small business contracting officer.
Remember that in the small business regs handout?
And then, remember that other, these pieces I've underlined?
Only if the business concern awarded the order has
represented itself as small
for the underlying multiple-award contract
for the same NAICS code.
Remember that?
So when the contractor submits the SAM
for their schedule contract, they show all the NAICS
and the size for NAICS, right?
So you need that picture of that piece for verification.
So there's a way of crafting it to ensure you meet, right,
you meet FAR 8.405-5(b) second sentence.
There's a way to ensure
that without requiring an order-level size
re-representation or recertification.
There's ways of doing that.
It just takes a little innovation
and creative crafting of your RFQ language.
Okay, hold on a second.
The possible scenario is a NAICS service order
or a NAICS supply order.
Yes, it's, again --
>> Hey, Brad.
>> It depends, right?
It depends on what your -- what you, again,
you choose the NAICS code
that represents the primary purpose of your order.
Anyway, yes, go ahead.
>> Hey, Brad, those three questions are
from the same person.
So I think they're just trying
to clarify what they're talking about.
So those three that are still
on the board are just continuations.
>> That's fine.
No, I knew that.
Anyway, let's take a look at --
go ahead and put that question up.
Right?
And what they're talking about here in this question, right?
They're talking about if you pull up the link,
and the question -- a requirement has been received
to replace rubber stair tread in a stairwell,
one of the facilities on a government installation.
The current stair tread is merely worn down.
It's still serviceable.
However, the customer would like it to be replaced.
You know, would this type
of requirement be considered a construction project or service?
And the answer here, given by the DAU professor is neither.
If installation of the tread is performed in connection
with a construction or general renovation project,
the requirement would be considered construction.
However, that is not the case for the purchase
and installation of the treads.
In your situation,
the installation is considered incidental
to the purchase of the treads.
Your requirement is not considered construction
or a service contract, but rather, a contract for supplies.
Again, that falls in ninth FAR.
The answer to that question falls directly in line
with FAR 19.102(d), right?
19.102(d).
What is the principal purpose of that order?
And a lot of times, that comes into what represents, right?
What represents, that's in the FAR.
The size standard for the industry accounting
for the greatest percentage of the contract price.
So in this question at DAU, ask the professor.
The way they answered this is what constituted the majority
of the price, right?
And this was the supply.
Therefore, it was a supply model, right?
So there you have it.
Anyhow, folks, okay, we got some more.
A purpose might be replaced threads equals a service.
Yes, there is a conundrum in that.
Primary purpose is to replace the treads, and yes,
but if the service to replace the treads in that example,
if the service costs more than the treads, right?
If the dollar value of the service costs more
than the dollar value of the treads,
then it would be a service contract.
But that's not what the professor,
at least in their answer.
They've determined that the cost of the treads cost more
than the cost of the service.
The supply cost more than the service.
Anyway, that is -- there you have it.
But that's what the FAR says.
It's always a gray area.
You know, we face that in professional services all the
time, especially with ODCs.
ODCs are incidental, too, and in support of, but the ODC,
I'll give you a quick example.
Quick example, folks.
Jason Bourne, we all know who he is.
Jason Bourne is stuck -- this is what he didn't go rogue.
He was a great government asset.
He stuck on a key mission and stuck in the Amazon jungle
and needs brain surgery.
The cost of the brain surgery -- and this is all contracted out.
Everything is contracted out, okay?
The cost of the brain surgery is 10 grand.
But to get him there, to get him there,
to get him to the Amazon jungle.
You've got to go through enemy territory.
So on and so forth.
The logistics of this requirement cost 30 grand.
So because of the logistics,
transportation, you know, protection.
You know, handling the surgeon's equipment, so on and so forth,
all the ODCs, all the ODCs cost 30 grand.
So they cost 300 percent more than surgery, right?
Does that suddenly make the primary purpose
of that particular requirement logistics not brain surgery?
See what I mean?
If you semantically read the FAR under that piece,
you couldn't choose the NAICS code
for brain surgery, could you?
You know, that's just kind of a wild example of [inaudible].
>> Hey, Brad?
>> Where in the FAR, FAR doesn't always --
isn't always clear and apply exactly to the situation.
Anyway, go ahead.
>> Hey, Brad, we're going to close up.
I'm assuming you're completed.
So if not, my apologies.
Again, another, again, another excellent presentation.
Thank you, Brad.
The MTV and Oscars are coming up soon,
so you're be nominated again.
And eventually, you will win,
probably over Brad Pitt, in the year 2050.
And by the way, this is a first.
The training has surpassed time allotted,
and it must be the speaker,
because we still have 230 in attendance.
Okay.
>> They haven't woke up yet, right?
I went so long they're in a full snore now.
>> That was great, Brad.
Thank you.
Thanks again for taking part in this month's Office
of Professional Services and Human Capital,
category Office Hours.
Our next Office Hours will be February 8th
at 1 p.m. Eastern or 10 a.m. Pacific.
The class will cover Best in Class Contracts
with Jerry Haworth, director, Jerry Haworth.
Registration and information to this link to participate is
on the Interact.gsa.gov website
under the Professional Services Human Capital category.
And we also encourage you to join our Interact community
to stay connected to the latest GSA update and news.
If you haven't had a chance, won't you use a tool
that are located on the acquisition gateway,
located at hallways.cap.gsa.gov.
In order to log on to the gateway,
you must go through OMB registration process.
For more information about that process,
please visit max.omb.gov.
If you have recommendations for topics you would like us
to cover in Office Hours, please send me an email to barry.
[inaudible]@gsa.gov, and this concludes this month's
Office Hours.
Again, thank you for participating,
and we look forward to seeing you
in our next session of office hours.
Thanks again.
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