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(upbeat synthesised music)
- Hi, I'm Jenn Schiffer.
I'm the Community Engineer at glitch.com here at Fog Creek.
Glitch is the friendly community
where you'll build the app of your dreams.
And today, I'm here talking with Sydette Harry,
Editor-at-Large at the Coral Project.
We're gonna talk a lot about community
and what she's doing in that sphere.
So, you are Editor-at-Large at the Coral Project.
- And editor of Mozilla.
- And editor of Mozilla?
- Editor, Network Mozilla, yeah.
- Awesome, so what does that mean?
- I'm responsible as the Editor-at-Large at Coral.
I started as the Community Lead,
so I was responsible for research
and looking into how you put together
and describe communities, specifically around journalism.
We were started as a partnership between the New York Times,
the Washington Post, Mozilla, and the Knight Foundation.
It originally started with how do we make better comments?
One of the things we came up with is after we started doing
our research and planning, is that comments aren't singular.
Comments are a reflection of community,
so if you want to have better comments,
you have to have better communities around journalism.
I've now moved on to editor-at-large,
so how do we talk about and do some of our research,
and with Mozilla, trying to build that journalistically
into a foundation.
How do we make a community of people
who care about internet health?
Coming from Coral, how do you make a community
about people who care about internet journalism
and journalism in general?
What are the things and the guides
that you need to make this work?
What are the things that work for communities?
And basically being in the archives and being in the crates
and going to the meetings and going, "Let's do this thing."
The slogan we have for Coral Project ended up being
Because Journalism Needs Everyone.
One of the things that is, I loathe to use it,
but the evangelization is getting people
to think about projects, specifically within tech,
that need communities.
Whatever you're building, needs a community,
because you need more than one person.
- When did the Coral Project get started, and why and how?
- It was originally thought about in 2012 or '13.
Sasha Koren, Aron Pilhofer,
various people from the Washington Post
and the New York Times looked at the comments and went,
"This is bad."
And, "What would we need
"to build tools around the comments?"
Because it's a very tech thing, "Let's build a tool."
As it got forward,
Greg Barber who's in charge of partnerships,
we started looking at that this needs to be
an interdisciplinary thing.
You cannot build your way out of sociocultural problems.
You actually have to look at their roots
and examine what they are.
They hired Andrew Losowsky, who's our Project Lead,
the General.
Then I was added as the Community Lead,
and the goal was, so we're going to create guides,
because it's great to, what happens a lot
is people ship out to tech, and the tech will fix it,
and there is an algorithm that nobody understands.
That is the fixture, but nobody knows how to use the thing,
how to adopt the things.
Also, starting to think about what works in communities
and how you bring people on,
and where are the places we can talk about that.
And that led us, I think into a lot of places
that I don't think people traditionally look for in tech,
about when they're thinking about communities.
So sports, theatre, theatre of the oppressed.
Augusto Boal was a big one for us.
Museum curation, all of that.
How do you really, when you want to bring people together,
to be together, how do you deal with that?
- So, I have worked with news sites before,
and when the comments were bad, which happens quite quickly,
one of the options was let's get rid of comments.
I know some sites have done that,
but why is that problematic?
To just get rid of comments entirely?
Why would you put the work into keeping commenting there?
- I think that's a common misconception that people have
is that people always,
because we started as a comments platform, people always go,
oh, you always want people to keep comments.
No, there's some places when we talk to them like,
please close your comments.
You are not about this life.
You are not about to put in this work,
please close these comments.
The issue that often came up with this is that
there was a close the comments.
There wasn't a, so how are we going to connect
with our community?
How are we going to help people talk to each other?
How are we going to get feedback?
Is that an email, is that a poll, is that a post?
When you are producing content for people, and more,
let's be blunt, when your business is based on the content
people produce for you, your comments, your tweets,
your posts on Instagram, Snapchat, all that,
how are people able to tell you what they need?
How are they able to see that you are listening?
How are they able to feel heard?
Those conversations didn't happen.
It's the version of when you're told to clean your room
and you just start shoving things under the bed,
and after a while if you don't actually clean the room,
the bed just starts lifting.
That's what the problem was.
Because for some things, you don't need comments.
There are certain issues where if you are holistically
considering your community,
you don't need to constantly expose people
to how terribly other people think of them.
But what you do need is a way for communities
and people to connect, and also more importantly,
correct you in how you are handling them.
- You have the guidelines, you have Talk and you have Ask.
Can you tell me about Talk and Ask?
- Talk is the comment box, so how you moderate comments,
where you put things in, how do you generate those?
Ask is our first product.
And that was the one, I think, it was very important for us
to start with and people were very confused by it.
This is how you collect user-generated content
and submissions and make polls and get things.
There was a fourth product that's just kind of built
into Talk that allows you to look for things,
and search for things as you moderate,
so that's on the moderation end.
But it comes from one of the beliefs is that the best way
to have people be interested in you,
is to be interested in them.
And one of the things that journalism I think has failed
continually at, and is still failing at in a lot of ways,
is how are you showing people that you are interested
in what they do, and interested and how they ask,
and actually actively soliciting the truth
about their lives?
And Ask, most people were telling us they were using
Google forms or SurveyMonkey.
These are all great things
but they are not for a journalistic workflow.
They are not for text.
They are for large data aggregation.
So you wanted something that kind of cut
and then put it into the way a journalist would work,
and allowed you to contact people
and allowed you to preserve identities,
and identify personal identifying information,
because these are the things
that journalists do with the people.
It's how do you create a tool that helps people
people better, in a workflow?
You wanna recognise that, and you can do something
with a text field that you can't do with a cell.
So that was what Ask was for,
and it's actually been used really well.
One of our most recent projects was a discussion
about race in Boston.
And there had been various responses
to different parts of it, but one of the things
people were so receptive to was the ability to be able to
tell their story and get feedback,
and not feel like telling their story
was preparation for battle.
And that is so often, especially for the most marginalised,
if you wanna tell the truth,
you've got to prepare for battle.
With something like Ask is you get to contribute,
you get to tell the truth.
And if you want to go forward you can,
but you also get to do the work of verification
and all the things that are important to journalism,
and protect your sources and protect your community.
- At least in the open source community,
you and I both are greatly involved
in open source communities.
We have dealt with things like licencing,
and now codes of conduct for projects are a thing,
like the Talk project has a code of conduct,
and the Apache licence.
And for Glitch, we're trying to put our best foot forward
and lead in with being a friendly community,
and so we're trying to build tools to allow that.
So we've added a feature to allow you
to add a code of conduct,
allow you to add a licence fairly easily.
But we know that that's just the first step.
What are some things that we can learn from physical,
real world communities in tech communities.
Besides, like, code of conducts have existed.
Every mall in New Jersey has a code of conduct at the door,
you know what I mean?
You're not supposed to rob or hurt people.
You go on a bus and it's like--
- We just showed our age, malls.
What are those?
Everybody's like, "What is a mall?"
- You're a Jersey girl now.
What else can we be doing?
For example, listening to our users?
What should we be doing to build tech
to give those protections to our users?
- One thing that's really important to me
whenever I have people talk about codes of conducts,
and I love OpenNews Source, their codes of conducts,
they're amazing.
Codes of conduct are almost always talked about in this way
of how do we want people to not behave?
Like, don't, do, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.
Think of it as a do.
What do you expect people to do when you come in?
This is where I do the terrible thing
that I'm not supposed to do, but I was an athlete in school,
and forgive me, but it's kind of like if you play a sport,
you do not expect that you will always get away uninjured.
That's just not how that game works.
But you are made aware of what is and isn't in bounds,
and you are indoctrinated into a culture
and that culture can be toxic or problematic.
But you know when you hit the field,
that's where the goal is.
This is how we'll choose a time.
A lot of times when you go into comments in other places,
that's not part of it.
They don't include what do you do, how do you do it,
where is the spaces.
That is what I think a lot of tech needs to start doing
is people think the solution is tech,
when tech is the tool people will use
to create the solution.
- It's the medium.
- Yes.
How do you want people to be in that medium?
And think of that that way.
As well as you should have a code of conduct
and no longer think this is a discussion no more.
Even if you don't have it officially,
unofficially you end up with a code of conduct, so have one.
And be comfortable with it being malleable.
It is something that you're responsible for
and you might not get it right, but you have these steps
and you have them in place,
and this is how you will activate them.
And this is what you want from the community.
Not just this is the thing we have to do,
or don't be jerks, guys.
That's nice, but to me that's not where the warmth is.
The warmth is, we are here to do a thing,
and we're trying to do the thing of our best ability,
and this is how we wanna help you know
what the best looks like.
- I think that there is in a lot of tech codes of conduct,
sort of are like TLDR, don't be a jerk,
because I feel like a lot of people in the tech community
need to be explicitly told that being a jerk is a bad thing.
Because again, we see the leaders in this industry
and the people who've made apps that we use every day,
and they're known for being jerks.
And everyone's like, "Oh, I wanna be like that guy."
- And there's also everyone's definition of a jerk
isn't always the same, and especially for technology,
where we're trying to build for a world.
We've got to try and think about so how do we make it
comfortable for people to let us know
whether or not we're successful at what we're doing?
That is what I think codes of conducts are,
and that's about what communities are is,
how do we come to actions that achieve what we want,
in ways that centre the people we want in the room,
that we all can participate in?
It's not just everybody who believes in the same way,
because your version of jerk and my version of jerk,
may be different, but we can have a complicit discussion
of this is how I'd like to be addressed.
Please do not do this and that and that.
We can have that,
and we should have spaces in our communities,
and you should have a place to be able to talk about that,
and have a place where you've decided on that.
- I feel like when it comes to thinking about humans,
which is what we've ultimately forgotten about in tech,
that we're building software for humans.
A lot of people working as a consultant,
accessibility was always an afterthought,
if a thought at all for projects.
It's like, well, it seems bad for business
to allow people to be jerks in your community
and drive other people away.
It seems bad for business
to not build tech that everyone can use.
- We are, and the we, and my first question is always,
wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold up.
Who's we, fam?
Who is the we?
Let's start there.
Who do you mean by we?
Um, people.
Which people?
Uh, people who do.
Does everybody have a phone?
How far in a legacy phone is this?
Like, there's a whole thing that goes through,
and very often one of the first things
with Coral we would do is go,
so, what is your community for?
Who is your community?
And a lot of people would just kind of go,
of course, it's our readers.
And you're like, are you sure?
Or is it your subscribers?
Or is it subscribers who will comment?
It's like, that's not an easy question.
- [Jenn] Or is it your advertisers?
- Come on now.
And that's not an easy question,
and people like to pretend it is
because it makes things simpler,
and there needs to be an admission that it's not simple.
- Yeah.
And I think that I've recently learned
that you need user personas.
You need to have an idea of who your users are,
and you'll learn that there are other people
slipping into the woodwork that have been using
your technology in a different way than you had expected.
And you have to see that as an exciting challenge
to meet and not a, well, we're not gonna really
cater to them, because that doesn't really help us
hit our bottom line.
They're an edge case.
I feel like we have to go more into this.
- No more edge case.
- Yeah, exactly, like edge cases being a fake idea.
- Sara Wachter-Boettcher's Design for Real People,
and I love it, is this idea that there's no such thing
as an edge case, there's stress cases.
Because depending on where you are, end of day,
everybody's an edge case.
Like, if you are flustered and nervous,
you will miss information.
If you are looking for something,
if you don't have access to something,
if you lose your phone, if you do this, if you do that,
you are going to need something.
And if you design for that in the beginning,
you don't sit there and go, "Oh, holy crap,
"what happens when people don't have broadband?"
There's a lot of stuff now where like, oh,
we didn't understand that people don't have broadband.
I'm like, because you all are in San Francisco.
Nobody went down to Kentucky.
- Yeah, when your user sample is the people
who share a co-working space with you,
is that actually really a cross-sample
that's significant at all with the rest of your users?
- And you need to present your business in that model.
If you can make your money off of just the kinds of people
like the people who are in your co-working space,
that's a good business model.
The problem is when you say it's for everybody.
- Yeah, and I think that's the one thing
that we need to catch ourselves on in tech
is that you can be building the tool
for a small set of people, that's totally fine.
But you can't jump on a table and be like,
we're saving the world, you know?
Unless you're actually putting the work in to try
to save the world, but if you're building an app
that is for a specific group of people.
- And who are you saving the world from,
and once again, who's we?
- Exactly, yeah.
- Who is we?
- What is the future of the Coral Project?
What is in the works?
What can we see in the future?
- Here's where I get to be very proud of my team.
They are now in 23 newspapers,
and working on other projects
and integrating with other people,
and constantly developing and iterating
and it's open source, so people are joining in.
It is plugin adaptable so people pull in plugins
to do polls,
and measure civility,
and identify trolling and heat map comments,
and it's all open.
- I was gonna ask you what your hopes and dreams were,
because on the Glitch team,
we always like to talk to each other
about what our hopes and dreams
with our work and in general.
But a lot of that sounds like really good hopes and dreams
and goals, and we think of hopes and dreams not as like,
something that's a pipe dream or something like that.
They actually become our sort of goals and values.
- Dreaming is work.
- Exactly, yeah. - Dreaming is work.
And this is a conversation I have with people is that
you have to have hopes and dreams because hopes and dreams
also tell you why what you want isn't possible right now.
So I want a Ferrari.
Why don't I have a Ferrari?
Because I don't have the money.
So you have to think about what is separating you
from your dream.
Now you might go halfway down your dream
and decide you don't want it no more,
but if you want it, it has to become something
that you talk about.
And too often you get this,
"Oh, well, you're such a dreamer."
I'm like, "Yes, and?"
I'm also a worker.
These things aren't mutually exclusive.
In terms of hopes, I mean the apple pie in the sky
is that everyone get along, not get along,
but we get justice and reparations,
and an end to exploitative capitalism,
and yada, yada, yada.
You know, I was raised by a revolutionary.
But the most important thing is that we give people
and we build things for people
to find the best uses for their potential.
And give them the space to find resources
that aren't given to them,
and continue to build a tech landscape
that allows for that more than the other thing.
I mean, there are things I want, but they're, I think,
for me what has been most amazing for tech
is the time when I've gotten to be my best self,
and I've gotten the space to be my best self.
I think that to me is a better goal
than a lot of the larger ones.
Am I giving the space, am I giving the tools,
am I giving the resources
for people to be their best selves?
And if they don't wanna be their best selves, I got that.
I'll back myself up, I'm good on that.
But with journalism and all of these things,
especially through Coral and Codes of Comment,
is how do we provide the resources and tools for people
to do that, and continue to build them in a way that allows
them to have good examples to build for themselves?
The biggest hope and dream's that it stops
being a couple of people in a room talking about a thing,
and we're gonna save it and it starts being the world
looking at how do we want to communicate with each other?
How do we want to actually deal with this space
as part of our lives?
And that become the focus of what we talk about with tech,
as a tool in the world, and not as the 600 guys
making way too much money in small sectors of the world.
But more like, who are the people that are putting
pedometers on cows,
and he's helping save the dairy industry?
Who are the peoples that are doing microlending
so that my friend's family business for 30 years
gets to stay on its feet?
What is the newspaper that started up
in my personal neighbourhood because the kids didn't believe
that they were being covered,
but they had Adobe, a Mac and an internet connection,
so they have a newspaper?
How do we make those moments possible,
and how do we make them possible
as many disciplines and things as we can?
That's my ongoing dream.
It doesn't have a close.
It's like, okay, we got here.
We can do better?
Can we do it again?
Can we do it again?
That's the thing.
I actually enjoy it.
I really do.
So that to me is the hope of tech.
And that's the flip side of the,
"Okay, I really want to fight everyone."
But there is something amazing when you see someone go,
"Look guys, I made my first news.
"I made my first zine.
"I made my first song."
And you watch people have this relationship
where it goes from, this is a thing that other people do,
to this is part of my life.
If we can get as many people as possible to that moment,
super excited.
- [Jenn] Yeah, I like the idea of the future being thinking,
"Oh, look how far we've come," not,
"Oh God, what have we done?"
Right now, we're at, "Oh God, what have we done?"
And so, yeah.
My hopes and dreams are aligned with yours there.
But I do want to say thank you for--
- Thank you for having me.
- Yeah, thank you for coming here.
Thank you for your work on the Coral Project and at Mozilla.
And thank you for fighting,
'cause that's where we need to be at right now.
- We always talk about love as this soft and beautiful,
wonderful emotion, and I say that is true.
But the other side about love is it's defence.
If you love something, you want it to continue living,
and there is no greater love
than ensuring someone's survival.
And sometimes ensuring someone's survival is a fight,
and it's very uncomfortable.
We all get, "Eh, ooh, but I, eh, eh, eh."
And I think sometimes if you are really met with someone
that does not want to ensure the survival of what you love,
you have to fight.
Okay.
We can make up after a fight.
But if we gotta have a fight, gotta have a fight.
(upbeat synthesised music)
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