Babyface: For the record, I don't have anything I have to set straight.
It is what it is.
If you think it, it might not be true but what does it matter?
Rob Markman: What's up, geniuses?
I'm Rob Markman and welcome back to For the Record.
Now, you may have noticed we took the show on the road, outside of our record room, outside
of the Genius offices because sometimes we have artists so special, so iconic, you just
got to do something different.
Okay?
Today's guest is an 11 time Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter, musician.
Okay?
He's written and produced over 26 number one R&B hits.
He's starting a new music publishing group, Good Vibes.
The man, the myth, the legend, Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds, man.
What's going on?
Babyface: How you doing, man?
Rob Markman: I'm doing good. How are you today?
Babyface: I'm good.
Doing great.
Rob Markman: Thank you for just giving us your time and allowing us in your studio.
Brandon's Way, this is where the magic happens.
Babyface: Yeah, this has been here for 21 years at least.
Rob Markman: Wow.
Babyface: Something like that.
Rob Markman: This studio is named after-
Babyface: My son, yeah.
Rob Markman: Is this the same son, now you had a record back in the day, "The Day."
Babyface: Same son.
Rob Markman: Okay and then you wrote a whole record about the day that you found out you
were gonna be a dad, and your son-
Babyface: Yeah, same kids, same studio.
Rob Markman: That's amazing.
So thank you for having us here.
Truly just walking down the halls, and I wish we could show you guys, just walking down
the halls, you see all the plaques on the walls, and just realize the history and the
legacy that you've created with the music.
It's truly amazing.
Does it ever dawn on you, like what you've done, or are you the type of person who's
always focused on tomorrow, and what you're doing in the moment?
Babyface: You just focus on tomorrow.
It's cool to see it.
It's not like I walk down that hallway and go wow.
And I think that's kind of like how you keep going, as long as you kind of look towards
the future.
I've seen over the years, some of my people that I've worked with, or worked around, they'll
have success on something, and they'll kind of just harp on that, and then they'll miss
the rest of the future for them, because they'll be like I did this, I did this, and not thinking
about doing anything else.
So I think, for myself, and even L.A., when we were working together, we always kind of
like, we kind of missed celebrating it at the time, because we were always working for
the next thing.
Rob Markman: Did you ever get to celebrate?
At this point, you haven't celebrated yet.
You don't look like the celebrating type.
Babyface: No, we'll go cool, have a drink, say cool, and move on.
That's just not kind of like who I've been, and I'm comfortable with that.
I think, at this particular point, it's a little bit more of ... celebrating is more
of kind of taking time and having time with family, and being able to go out and do some
trips and stuff with the family, and stuff like that, because I still work as much, and
'cause this is part of my life, this is what I enjoy doing.
Rob Markman: That's how you do it.
And it feels like you might start working harder, more harder than ever, at this point.
You've got a new venture that you started on, a music publishing group, right?
Good Vibes Music?
Tell me about it.
Babyface: Well, it's a thing that I'm doing with my partner Jason Murray, and we kind
of met, and we're kind of interested in the same things.
Since I met Jason, I've been going out and doing more writing, co-writing, than I've
done before, and writing with a number of people that, you know, younger people that
I had gone in with, like from writing with Star, Starrah, and Daniel Caesar, and other
writer/producers from Monsters and Strangers, and to James Fauntleroy, and just working
with people that I hadn't really kind of worked with before.
And it was fun, and it just kind of inspired me to find other, younger writers that are
still wanting to write music, and care about lyrics, and care about melody, so we kind
of decided to go after it, and this is the beginning of it.
Rob Markman: What are some of the ways that you find ... because there used to be a traditional
way to break into the music business.
There were like roads that were well traveled, and you could follow blueprints, and I feel
like in this era now for musicians of all types, songwriters too, that the walls have
broken down.
You can really find talent anywhere.
It doesn't necessarily come to you, a lot of times it might be in somebody's bedroom.
With Good Vibes, how are you going about seeking out new talent and fostering the talent?
Babyface: All those ways as well, word of mouth, but then, you know, through social
media we made it possible for people to send us their music, so we can kind of go through
those that stood out.
And we've had a couple of writing camps.
We had a writing camp here in LA.
We had one set for Atlanta, but we're gonna actually still do it here at the studio, because
it worked out well.
And then we actually did one in Nashville, the Secret Genius studio there, which was
really cool, and met some really incredible talent there.
And it's different, because there's a difference between how the writers work there in Nashville,
as opposed to how they work here.
It's a different mentality I think, which makes it interesting, makes it fun.
Rob Markman: Then you mentioned Atlanta too, so amazing to see, especially for this generation,
especially in the hip hop generation, Atlanta has become the hub of just culture and transient
You know, it's been like that for some years, but you know, you and L.A. set up shop in Atlanta
when it was very new, and a lot of what's going on today, you guys helped build that
foundation in that city, for what's going on right now.
Babyface: Yeah, we're proud of that, getting a little credit in terms of driving the traffic
there, and making it become kind of the music mecca that it is, that it ultimately became,
whether we were there or not.
And when we went down there, we didn't ... I can't say that we knew exactly that that's
where it was.
To be honest, we kind of like picked a place, where you wanna go, and fortunately it was
Atlanta, and it certainly made the difference, in terms of our careers.
Rob Markman: What's the vibe like in that city?
If I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, it might have started working with
Whitney down there like Whitney was working on an album, and it was just like, man, let's
just get away, and took off, but there was a vibe, a certain magic.
Babyface: When we went there, we initially went there because it was affordable housing,
we could buy a house, and we wanted to start a company where we were like the big fish
in a little sea, and we felt like if we started here or started in New York, we were gonna
get swallowed up.
So when we went there, it was just, there were a couple of people that we knew.
We knew Dallas Austin, ahead of time, before we went down there, so we knew there were
other producers that we'd be able to work with as well, and we immediately got down
there and started shopping, started trying to find acts, and while we were there we were
also, that is where we recorded Whitney for the first time, which was in the house studio,
at L.A.'s house, that we had, a place called LaCoCo, and it was great.
Rob Markman: Yeah man, the results were great.
So, going back to Good Vibes, what do you look for, you've written so many and produced
so many hit records, and not even hits, because you can find things on the charts, but records
that really stuck with us, and surpassed generations, timeless records, so to speak.
When you're looking at new writers, what are some of the things that make you still, the
hair stand up on the back of your neck, on your arms?
What do you look for in new writers, when the magic happens?
Babyface: More just whether they have a sense of melody, a sense of clever lyrics, things
that can ... either clever lyrics, or something that touches you, that goes to the heart.
All those things are part of it, so if you're talking about top line writers, or if you're
talking about, what you rarely find is someone that does it all, someone that can play the
piano, play the guitar, program, sing, produce.
It's exciting when you find that person, that can really do it all, and still be a musician,
that actually can play instruments, and doesn't have to rely totally on just the computer,
and what you can find in terms of putting samples together, which is an art within itself.
I'm a little traditional, in like I like to see both of those worlds working together,
'cause I think, if you can create it yourself, then it gives you more room and more places
that you can go.
Rob Markman: You mentioned Starrah.
You mentioned James Fauntleroy.
Who are some of the other writers, creators, that you like in this new generation, that
gets you excited?
What gets Babyface excited?
Babyface: Well, it's, I don't listen to everything, I always listen to the ... people bring to
me that they tell me to check out.
The kid I've been working with Christopher Riddick-Tynes, he's been for years, and he's
always like, you should check out this and check out that, so ... and so he's kind of
like my gauge many times, in terms of what I'm looking for.
And not even so much looking for, just in terms of what's out there and what's good.
And there's a lot of nice things that are happening, and initially I was introduced
with Daniel Caesar, and I couldn't believe just how much soul and just heart that he
had to it, and the voice was just kind of ridiculous.
And then, just as impressed by his approach, in terms of not just the melodies, but the
lyrics, and how he approaches things in a different way.
That's like a today, real artist, and we haven't got a lot of that in the past few years, but
I see that changing.
I see people are growing, and he does something great, like the R&B, the new R&B so to say,
'cause it's not about him being pop, it's about him being himself, whatever that is.
Rob Markman: That leads to my next question.
This is strictly just my opinion, and I wonder how you feel about it, but Daniel Caesar's
one of those artists that represent R&B in a very ... love songs, right, and I feel like
you wrote a lot of songs that our generation, might have been their first school dance,
might have been their first kiss, their first date, conceived their first baby, to a Babyface
song, so it's very much about being in love, and the trials of tribulations of love, and
I feel like, in this generation, we don't get as much of that.
It feels more like lust in R&B.
What's your take on the new generation of what's going on, as a whole, and maybe how
do we get back to the love?
Babyface: I think that's what's happening, is now you're having artists like a Daniel
Caesar, or like a H.E.R., and even more, I can't think of all the names at this point,
but they're actually exploring love in their way.
It's still a little bit more edgier than we would have done it back in the day, but not
like we didn't want to do it, you just couldn't do it.
But every now and then, you get a curse word would be perfect for something, and you just
couldn't do it, but now you can.
And that doesn't throw me off.
Actually, sometimes it's the best way to say it.
But, I think what's happening now, is that, in music and in songs, it's finally getting
to a point where you're allowed to be vulnerable again.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
And actually, it's cool, and so for that to be cool again, that's a good thing.
Rob Markman: You say vulnerable, and I had this question, it'll come further down the
line, but it's something that I always laugh at, and you are a master at that, Boys II
Men were very vulnerable, "Down On Bended Knee", "End of the Road", something that always
makes me laugh in End of the Road, obviously, about the break up, is when they come on,
and we don't even get this anymore, kind of the spoken work part in the middle of the
song, and he says, "Baby, I know you was out there with that other guy, I just didn't care."
I didn't get that.
I feel like I would care.
It would be the end of the road.
Was that freestyle, or how did that kind of come about?
Babyface: That was pretty much freestyle, Michael just kind of went for it, and it was
not something that ... it was old school back then to do it, so nobody did that back then,
but it felt like such an old school song, that I thought it would be ... We thought
it would be fun to do that, and it actually worked out very well, where it's ... It did
start a trend where everybody started doing it, 'cause they kind of owned it themselves,
but it was fun though.
Rob Markman: It definitely made it special.
You know you were always gonna get that spoken word interlude, the deep, bassy, the Quiet
Storm voice, baby.
Babyface: Exactly.
Rob Markman: That's an amazing record.
I want to go back to the beginning with you, 'cause there's a funny story.
You're probably told it a million times, so forgive me, but I'm sitting here as a journalist
interviewing you, and you, in a weird sort of way, kind of started your career, got your
foot in the door as a journalist in the eighth grade, interviewing the Jackson 5.
In this generation, we'll call it a finesse.
It was a hustle.
You really hustled your way in the door.
You mind telling that story?
Babyface: It was a hustle.
When I first saw The Jackson 5, I saw them when I was in sixth grade, and it was the
very first concert that I'd ever gone to.
It's just funny, with Justin, he told me his first concert was me, Boys II Men, and Brandy,
and he was in fourth grade, and I'm like, that shows me how old I am.
But my first concert, I was in sixth grade, and when I saw them on the stage, they came
to Indian, Indianapolis, at the coliseum, and I saw them, I couldn't believe it when
they actually walked in, walked on the stage.
I had a terrible seat.
I was in the back of the stage watching the back of their heads most of the time.
I could only see their faces when they would spin.
Other than that, it was really just kind of the feeling of the room.
And I was just in awe, I think I was sitting there was watching, I had tears coming down
my face, just couldn't believe that they were there.
And that these little black kids were like making this crowd go crazy like The Beatles.
I used to watch The Beatles, and it was like watching The Beatles.
Babyface: And the crowd was so loud you could barely hear the music, 'cause it was just
that loud, but it hit me at that point, that that was something that I wanted to do.
I wanted to somehow be involved in music, and it also hit me at that point that one
day I wanted to meet them.
I didn't know how it was gonna happen, but I said, I have to meet them one day.
And so, interesting enough, a couple of years later, when I was at eighth grade, at the
end of my school year ... no, it was actually not the end, it was mid-year, probably March
or something, I have to look at the date, but I think it was March, I looked in the
newspaper and saw that Jackson 5 were coming to the city again, and I was like, I gotta
meet them, I gotta meet them.
And so, I came up with this idea to call the promoter, 'cause in the newspaper it said
the promoter was this guy named Charles Williams, and so I looked up every Charles Williams
in the phone book, that's when we used to have phone books.
Rob Markman: Follow along, guys.
It's an amazing story.
Babyface: You never had phone books.
So I looked up every Charles Williams in the phone book, and it was a bunch of Charles
Williams, and I called every one of them, until I reached the Charles Williams the promoter,
and then when I finally reached him, found out first, I had one voice I reached him,
and then I kinda just hung up, and then I called back, probably about 30 minutes later,
and I called as a guy named Mr. Clayton, which was my journalist teacher in school, which
he actually just taught English, I just called him a journalist teacher.
So I used his name, and I used a voice that I used to impersonate all the time.
I was a big Jimmy Stewart fan, and so I used my Jimmy Stewart impersonation to act like
an adult.
And I talked to Charles and asked him, I heard that you got this young group coming in, the
Jackson something.
He says, The Jackson 5?
I said, yeah, yeah, that's the group, and so I'm interested.
I wondered if you would have an interest in kids interviewing kids.
He said, that's a great idea.
That's a great idea.
What are you thinking?
Babyface: I said, well, I have these kids that are really interested in them, this kid,
I think it would be great if it could happen.
He said, I'll tell you what Mr. Clayton, why don't you give me your number, and I'll give
you a call back, and I'll let you know whether I can make that happen.
And I said to him, well, I think what would be better is, I'm gonna give you the name
of one of the kids, his name is Kenny Edmonds.
I'm gonna give you his number, and you should call him.
He could handle the whole thing, and I want him to do it like a real journalist.
He said, even better, even better.
So I said, I'll give him a call right now.
He said, that would be great.
So I gave him my number, and he called back in five minutes and said, I'm Charles Williams,
I'm a promoter, and your teacher, Mr. Clayton, told me to call you.
And I acted surprised, Mr. Clayton?
Oh my god, oh my god.
What did he say?
Well, he wants to see if you guys want to ... if you might be interested in interviewing
The Jackson 5.
I said, that would be amazing, thank you, thank you so much.
Babyface: He said, well give me a week, I'm gonna give you a call back in a week.
So I had to stay by the phone at my house, 'cause if my mom knew that I had lied and
I approached it that way, it would have never happened, so I was on guard duty on the phone
for at least a week.
And finally he called, and he said, you got the interview, it's gonna happen.
And he said, a week from now, on a Saturday night, you get down here around 5:00.
No it was about 3:00 I guess.
You come down and you get to see the guys.
And I was like, couldn't believe it.
I was losing it.
And then I called a friend of mine named Malcolm Gregory and his sister, Tina Parsons, she's
the one that actually took us down there.
We took our little cameras with us, and went to the Hilton hotel, I think it was on the
15th floor, and we actually walked upstairs, walked inside the room, and it was amazing.
It was just a regular room with twin beds, and little table at the end.
And I walked in, and Marlon and Jermaine are kind of sitting on this bed, and Tito and
Jackie were on the next bed, and Michael was just kind of sitting at a table by himself,
and that's where I went.
Babyface: And then my friend Malcolm that was with me, he went and talk to the other
guys, but I went straight to this table and talked to Michael, which was crazy, because
Michael was much shorter than what he ultimately ... he grew to be taller than me.
We're actually the same age.
And I wore a letter sweater, to try to make myself look like I was little more important.
It was my brother's letter sweater.
I remember Michael asking me if that was like letters for a college or something.
And I just, you know, I said nah, nah.
And I actually told him the truth, that it was my brother's.
And just talking about what it was like to be him, and what's his favorite color.
I had whack questions, 'cause I couldn't even believe I was in the room.
And it was amazing.
I took a picture, and next day me and Malcolm, we went, we were on the bus, and I showed
the picture to some of the girls on the bus, and they started screaming.
They grabbed it, and it got crazy, and the picture got torn up.
Rob Markman: Ah, nah, get out of here.
Babyface: It got torn up, so it was stupid.
Rob Markman: That's award-winning journalism right there, if I ever seen it.
What was Michael's favorite color?
Babyface: I don't even remember.
Rob Markman: Now, the great part about this story, obviously, Michael went on, and the
Jacksons went on to have this incredible legacy, Kenny Edmonds went on to have this incredibly
legacy also, and you guy actually worked together.
You worked a lot with Jermaine, you worked with Michael.
Did they remember you when you came back as Babyface?
Did they remember the story?
Babyface: Of course not.
They met a million people, and that's what happens is, over the years, you meet so many
people that you don't ... as I'm gonna remember that story, he's not gonna remember that story,
and that's every true, even to myself, those that I might meet along the way.
You meet so many people that it's a little bit more important to them, than it is to
you, at the moment, and it doesn't lessen it, so I didn't ... I was never offended by
it at all.
And I told him exactly what happened.
It went so well that I actually did it a second time, so I do have that picture that's outside
of-
Rob Markman: Oh, so you interviewed them twice.
Babyface: I did it twice, and that was like a couple of years later, when I was a sophomore,
and I at least got the picture opportunity.
I have the picture to prove it, but it was actually a couple of years before that that
I met them.
Rob Markman: Such a great hustle.
Man, just-
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, can we just stop and start just quickly.
Rob Markman: That's an amazing story, man.
I know you probably told it a million times, but I feel people get so much inspiration
out of it, and if you can't get in the front door, go in through back, go in through the
window.
Man, you've written these deeply personal records with so many huge artists.
What's the process like for you?
How do you get to the heart of someone else's matter?
Babyface: First thing you try to do with any artist, and mostly female artists, usually
didn't do it so much with the guys, the guys i just kind of imagined a situation, and then
they would come listen, and that was it, they'd sing the song.
But most of the female artists, I would usually, and that usually happened later on, I'd sit
and talk to them, and kind of get to the essence of who they were, or play something for them,
trying to get some kind of emotion out of them, 'cause it allowed me to kind of figure
out how to write for them.
Maybe in a sense I always kind of did that a little bit, 'cause I certainly got to know
Pebbles very well, and wrote for her.
Babyface: The very first song that was written for her was, that we placed on her ... it
wasn't written for her initially, initially it was the song that I had written and had
a young lady named Debra Hurd, who was in Damian Dames, and Tim wrote the song for me,
way before Pebs had ever heard it, so that song had become ... we were kind of going
out there trying to pitch the song, and initially we pitched the song to Vanessa Williams, at
Epstein.
And we had a couple of other songs that were there, and they ultimately, I think it was,
the way that it happened, I think they listened to everything that we had, and they were kind
of funny about some of the things.
And I remember having a funny feeling about not feeling so welcome in that room.
Rob Markman: Imagine that.
Babyface: And so, we had made a deal, they made a deal for three songs.
I think the deal was for three songs, for 12K, and in fact 12.5K, for three songs, all in.
And so we, at that point, we were like great, we're gonna make some money, and we'll get
these songs in.
Then we went over to MCA, and we met with Louil Silas, and met with Cheryl Dickerson.
When we met with Louil, we talked a little about doing Bobby Brown, it was this new kid,
well not new kid, but a kid from New Edition.
He had just put out this record "Girlfriend", and they wanna kinda work on some more records
for his next album, and we weren't sure at that particular point.
Then we met with Cheryl Dickerson, who told us about this group called The Boys.
Rob Markman: "Dial My Heart".
Babyface: Yeah, "Dial My Heart," and we were saying we'd take a look at that.
Then she said, nah, this project is really kind of done, but there's this girl I think
y'all should meet, 'cause I think she's pretty bad, she's pretty talented, and her name is
Pebbles, and you should at least go by there.
I think she's kind of done with the record, but at least go check it out.
So, we went over to the studio where she was, and she was at the studio called Studio Masters,
which is on Melrose, no it was on Beverly.
And when we went in there, our sessions that we had, we just have some water, and that
was it, or some sodas, and we walked in there, she had a big fruit basket, she had some champagne,
and we thought she was rich, 'cause she was drinking Asti Spumante, and it was just, the
whole session was like, dang, dang, who is this chick?
And why is she so rich, and this is her first record?
Then she played us "Mercedes Boy".
Babyface: I was like, oh, this is ridiculous.
Then she played us another thing.
And then, before we were walking out, as we were walking out, we started to walk out,
and I said to L.A., I said wait a minute, this is "Girlfriend."
She is "Girlfriend."
And he goes, nah, we can't do that, because we've already placed the song.
I said, but this is, I'm telling you, this is "Girlfriend."
My motto has always been is, the song gets priority.
The song should go to where is the best home.
It's not a question about how much money you're getting, it's a question of who's gonna really
be able to deliver that record, and make the song come alive.
And L.A. said we can't do this, that's not gonna happen.
And so, I kind of suggested it to Pebs anyway, she said, let me hear the song.
So we played her the song, and she lost it.
She said, I gotta have this record, I gotta have this record.
And at that time, at that point, Pebs was married to a guy named George Smith, and I
don't know what her budget was, but we kind of said, L.A. said, I don't know that we can
give it with our situation, and so we left, and I kept on telling L.A., man, I'm telling
you, that's who it should go to.
Babyface: And then, George Smith got involved, and he said, I heard y'all got this record,
I just heard the record, it's hot.
He said, so what is it y'all getting paid over there for, for this record?
We said, well, we getting 12.5 for it, three songs.
He said, alright, then I'll give you 15 for one.
And so I told L.A., we gotta do it.
So we snatched the song back, and we ... L.A. had to make that call to Ed Eckstein.
I remember something to the effect of where, we were right down the street, at Highland
Terraces here, and we were working at one of the apartments, and L.A. ... so we had
Pebs come in to check out a song, and Vanessa had came in to check out a song, and so they
kind of like passed each other's way at some particular point.
And so, when we told Ed Eckstein that Pebs was getting the song, they lost it.
And they hated us.
They hated L.A., and they blamed L.A. for it, 'cause they thought LA and Pebs had something
going on.
He said, I just know i saw something, I saw something.
And so it was kind of a bad thing, 'cause it was like, it was really my decision, I
made the call, but LA got completely blamed for it.
I think we ran into Ed Eckstein later, and he was cussing LA out, and it was all my fault.
Babyface: But it was a thing of where I kind of chose, I would always choose the song,
and depending on how the song felt and who it was, 'cause I though "Girlfriend" was
Pebs, and so that kind of started a thing, whenever I would talk to anybody, I kinda
wanna know who they were, and what their vibe was like, 'cause it makes a difference in
terms of the song, and what kind of song you write for them.
So it started on that page, and I was just kind of learning, but as the years went by,
when I first met Whitney, I took Whitney to my house and we played her "I'm Your Baby
Tonight" and we played her this song called "Miracle", which, after I played the song,
she actually had tears in her eyes.
She said to me, at that point, I can't do that song.
And I said, well, why can't you do it?
She says, well I don't like to do songs that I can't completely relate to.
But in my head I was like, you're totally relating to it.
But she didn't do the song then, but she ultimately did it later.
Babyface: So it kind of, what I learned from it is that, if you kind of spend the time
and talk to an artist ahead of time, and it got to a point to where, by the time I meet
an artist, a female artist specifically, by the time we finish our talking session, there's
tears, from just having a conversation about life and broken hearts, 'cause I go in deep,
just to kind of understand.
It helps to kind of get a feeling about what to write about.
Like Toni Braxton was, it was more difficult, 'cause Toni was so young, Toni hadn't really
been in love yet.
She hadn't really had the broken heart stuff, so it was clearly about her sound, and she
was such a kid, that she was ... and so detached from the world, the secular world.
She didn't know movies, she didn't know anything.
I sat down and watched Star Wars with her at my house.
We became really good friends from the get go, but in me spending time with her, it also
made it easy for me to kind of figure out what to write for her, and how to kind of
speak in her voice, so to say, as a writer.
And that's ultimately what you try to do with every artist.
And some artists you can't sit down with and talk to.
Mary J. Blige, for "Not Gon Cry"-
Rob Markman: "Not Gon Cry," that was gonna be my next question.
Babyface: That, I had to imagine it, I had to imagine what I thought Mary could say,
and I remember having the discussion with Andre Harrell, Uptown, yes, and Andre, when
he heard "Not Gon Cry," he was like, he said that's not for Mary.
Rob Markman: Wow, really?
Babyface: And his reasoning was, and I understood it, he said, she's not old.
She don't have kids.
That doesn't ... it doesn't relate to her life.
And that's when I kinda ... my opinion was, well, it's not supposed to be her life, it's
someone else's life.
She can be the voice for other people, and that's what she's supposed to do.
Rob Markman: It was also connected to the movie-
Babyface: Yeah, so there was a reason for it, but more importantly, it was a song that
other people could relate to, whether it was her story or not, and I didn't know exactly
how it would come, but I know that it was a new experience for Mary at the time, 'cause
she hadn't really worked with a producer like myself.
And we got so lucky, because I think that became Mary's first top 10 pop record.
Rob Markman: You could feel the pain in that record, the way she delivered it, whether
that was her reality or not.
One question, because we always laugh at ... and it was great, because when Mary just lets
go, anything comes out, so "I was your lover and your secretar".
Did you write out "secretary," and she just went, "secretar?"
Babyface: She had a question about that, because I wrote it that way.
What's secretar?
I said, just trust me, just go with it.
And I did it 'cause it just worked, better for the rhyme.
But everybody accepted it.
And she was ... it was pretty amazing.
It was a different experience for me, because at that point, I hadn't really worked with
anybody that was like, that hip hop, from that world-
Rob Markman: Because it was very, and just for anybody watching it now, who maybe wasn't
around then, or got the records after, hip hop and R&B was very much separated, and sometimes
you would have a rap verse on an R&B record, but a lot of times they would service the
record to radio, without the rap verse.
It was very much church and state at that time, and it hadn't all the way come together.
Babyface: Correct.
Rob Markman: Even in the early to mid-90s.
Babyface: Correct.
So it was a new experience for me, and a new experience for her as well.
And it was great, it worked out great.
Rob Markman: It was dope too, 'cause I think a lot of your records and your writing, and
the way you relate to women, that I really want to applaud you for that, 'cause I think
it helped raise also a generation of men, hearing these records, and then feeling like,
okay, maybe this is how I should treat a woman, this is how I shouldn't treat a woman.
A record like Karyn White, "I'm Not Your Superwoman."
I remember my mother loved that record, and she's talking about cooking dinner for her
man, and having his coffee and his breakfast ready, and him still not giving her the love
that she feels that she deserves.
And then you flip it on, I feel like your record, "As Soon as I Get Home," was almost
like the yin and the yang to that record, 'cause you're like, hey baby, I'll wash your
clothes, I'll cook you dinner.
Babyface: The motto was, say what women want to hear, period.
"Superwoman" was a record that I was inspired by to write from this group from a long time
ago, called Fifth Dimension, that did this song called "One Less Bell To Answer."
It was, when they said, one less bell to answer, one less egg to fry.
I was like, oh man, it was such conversation.
And it made me want to write a song about just having a conversation, and Karyn, she
killed that record.
Rob Markman: When do you know how to keep a record for yourself, for Babyface, 'cause
you have some pretty amazing records.
"When Can I See You Again" is a dope record, "Every Time I Close My Eyes", "This is For
The Lover In You", "Whip Appeal", we can go on, "There She Goes" is one of my favorite
records, you and The Neptunes, that worked together on that one, you and Pharrell, it
was great.
When do you know that a record is for somebody else, and when do you know that this record
is for Babyface?
Babyface: It's when I can't do it first.
There's some records that I might sing, but I don't feel like it comes alive.
And then there's some records, like "Every Time I Close My Eyes," that initially wasn't
for myself, that was initially, I wrote that for Luther, and Luther almost decided to do
it.
It was, Kenny G was doing an album, and he asked if I would write something for him and
Luther.
I said, sure, and so I wrote that, and then Luther, we did this over the record playing,
Luther came in and he heard it, he liked the record, but he just didn't want to do it.
And I think, ultimately, he didn't want to do it because he didn't want to do a guest
on Kenny G's album.
I hated it, 'cause I really wanted him to sing that song.
Babyface: And so, when he didn't sing the song, then Kenny asked me to sing it, and
then I sang it, and then, when Tommy Mottola heard the record, he said, you're not giving
this to Kenny G, this is your record.
And it became this big mess, and then Mariah heard the record, and she loved the record.
She said, I gotta sing backgrounds on this.
It was like, I couldn't believe it, so it was ... and that's the kind of thing.
Sometimes it might not always be for me.
It might just be a leftover from somebody else that didn't take the song, so it's hard
to make that judgment.
I can only tell you that ... I sang "End of the Road," I did the demo to "End of
the Road," and when Boys II Men did it, I knew at that point ... I considered keeping
"End of the Road," 'cause I felt it was such a good record, but when they sang it,
it was like, wow, this is their record.
Rob Markman: Well, they have the cheat code, 'cause they can do the harmonies-
Babyface: Well, I can do the harmonies too, but I'm telling you, it was the way that they
sing, the way that Nate opened up that record, and it was just, that was the first point
of me seeing how our chemistry worked, Boys II Men and myself writing.
Rob Markman: So even with yourself, the record took priority, 'cause you could have had an
ego and been selfish, this is a smash, I'm keeping this, but you still gave ... even
bigger than your own ego was the record.
Babyface: Always.
Song first, always.
Rob Markman: Amazing.
I want to go on to LaFace just really quickly, such a ground breaking label.
Outkast, one of the greatest hip hop, arguably the greatest hip hop group ever, just the
greatest musical groups ever, did you know what you had early on?
Did you know they were gonna be-
Babyface: No, L.A., I gotta give credit to L.A., 'cause L.A. was ... that's where L.A.
was being record company man.
I had no real sense of hip hop and what was great and what wasn't great.
And that was something where L.A. was like, you know, we gotta change with the times,
We gotta get growing, and L.A. was always good with that, and have to give him that fine.
I happened to be blessed, 'cause L.A. was my partner, and he called them, he put them in.
Rob Markman: Again, timeless songs, timeless anthems, Beyonce, "Best Thing I Never Had,"
What was that session like?
How did that one come-
Babyface: That was fun to do, 'cause that was the first time I actually was able to
go to the studio, 'cause I had written a song for her before.
Rob Markman: When you worked with Destiny's Child-
Babyface: I didn't work with Destiny's Child, it was with Beyonce, but it was with some
other writers, and it got through that way, but ... so that's the first time I actually
went and worked on a few songs, a few ideas for her, while she come in and check it out
in, in that way, and it was very cool to do, and very cool to be in her space, in that
way.
Beyonce is arguably one of the greatest artists that we've ever had, with what she can do,
how she sings, and her star, the way she shines, the way she performs.
Everything about her, she's just a complete star.
And we don't ... it's very rare when you get all that all together, when you have somebody
that can dance like that, and someone that can sing like that, and somebody that's as
beautiful as that, and somebody that's also as sweet as that, that's a nice person.
It's very hard to see that actually all come together, and she's one of those, she's one
of the rare examples of when that happens.
Rob Markman: Have you ever had a studio, and you've been in with all them, man, even now,
to today's stars, Bruno Mars, Ariana Grande, you've worked with them all, and I really
commend you too, because I think, as much as Beyonce, Bruno Mars, Ariana, pop stars,
and that four to the floor kind of hit is very necessary, man, the power ballads, the
real love songs that you balanced them out and really ... the records that you create,
really help people love an artist, you know what I'm saying?
Connect.
Babyface: I think you have to ... I give credit to those artists, 'cause I don't reach out
for them, they reach out for me.
So I'm honored when somebody, like Ariana, who is a much younger artist, even Bruno,
who can easily ... who already had hits himself, and could easily not necessarily call me for
anything, didn't need me, but still wanted to just kind of get in there and chop it up.
So it's the same as myself, when I ... I'm growing up, and there's certain people that
I want to get in the room with.
I wanted to get in the room with Stevie Wonder, just to be in the room.
Rob Markman: And you did?
Babyface: And I did.
Stevie sat right in that room over there, and singing "How Come, How Long".
And that was the first time I worked with him in the studio, and I was getting all these
nightmare stories like he never shows up, or he's gonna come extra late, he's gonna
come at 4:00 in the morning.
And he came on time, and he was telling me, I was listening to him sing, he says, how
do you want me to sing?
What do you want me to sing?
I said, what am I telling you for?
I can't tell you nothing.
And he's just like, nah, nah, whatever you want, just let me know what you want.
So, it was amazing to see someone like him, like you have Stevie Wonder, or you have Quincy
Jones.
I meet Quincy Jones and worked with Quincy, and you see that how just regular people that
they are, and how huge they are that they still are like very normal.
Babyface: And so it was a lesson to me, to always try to stay real to yourself in that
way, and be an everyday person, when you get into the room and you're working with someone.
Try to ... sometimes when a young artist or someone new comes in, there's this kind of
apprehension that's there, and there's a nervousness that's there, and I'm like always ... it's
always funny to me, 'cause I'm like, it's just me.
And so it takes a second for us to kind of like get comfortable, so there's nothing here,
but we're all just kind of writing songs and singing, and having a good time, so I'm trying
to get the best that we can get.
Rob Markman: I was a wreck before this interview, I just want to let you know, man, palms sweaty,
all of that.
You definitely got a way of calming the room and making everybody feel comfortable in your
presence as well.
What's the craziest studio story that you have?
Stevie Wonder didn't show up at 4AM, are there some that just went totally haywire?
Babyface: I don't know that there's every anything that was completely crazy.
I used to have challenges with Whitney at times, in terms of her getting in the studio
at a certain point in our career, our relationship in working.
There were times when I would fly out to Jersey to work with her, and be inside their studio,
I'd be there, and she wouldn't even show up.
All she had to do was walk across the yard, and so I'd fly all the way, and I'd have to
call Clive, and Clive would say, well, if you could just wait another day, and then
I'd wait another day, and then it wouldn't happen, and then I'd take off, and I'd get
the call back, well she's ready now, and can you come back and do it.
And I would do it.
I just kinda ... I kinda ... I'd bend for her in that sense.
I didn't do that for everybody.
David Foster, he was like, I'm not doing that.
He's just, he wasn't gonna be like that, but for me, it was ... I always wanted Whitney
to win, and I was always honored that I was in the room with her, to hear her from the
first time when she sang "I'm Your Baby Tonight," and she sung it so quick, and she said she
wanted to finish it quickly, 'cause she wanted to go to the mall.
So it was just amazing to be in the presence of greatness, and when you have
that opportunity ... I've pinched myself many times, about my life, and the people I've
met, and the people I've worked with, the fact that I've been in the room with them,
the fact that I can say that I was in the room and worked with Aretha Franklin, that
I can say I worked with Barbara Streisand, to an Eric Clapton, it's just ... it's just
so many people that I've been able to kind of work with.
It's ... I have to pinch myself to think, for that kid that made the prank call, so
to say, to Charles Williams, how that happens.
And it keeps happening, 'cause just when you think you have done it all, then you'll get
a call from someone, like last year, a couple of years ago, I got a call from Johnny Mathis,
and got to work with Johnny, so I did music on Johnny Mathis, and so it doesn't ever really
kind of stop.
Babyface: And I'm just excited as to work from a Johnny Mathis, out to going, I just
did some work with Daniel Caesar, so it's constant.
The thing about being an artist, and being a writer, is that you don't really ever have
to stop.
As long as you stay true to the art, and try to stay relevant, in terms of what the music
is, and what people are listening to, and how they listen, and you're coming from a
heart space, then there's always that possibility.
If I were to say anything, my real blessing has been, is that I've been able to stay in
this business and relevant for a while, because younger artists have reached out for me to
work with them, so it allows me to kind of stay young and stay in the business.
Rob Markman: You have mentioned Whitney, and obviously you had a close relationship, a
friendship, a great working relationship, and I wanted to ask you about this thing,
and get your feelings on it, because it hurt a lot of people recently.
Kanye West's artist Pusha T and Kanye West had decided to use an old picture of Whitney's
bathroom for the album cover.
Did you catch wind of this story at all?
Babyface: I don't know exactly what the complete story is, but from what I understand they
took a picture of the bathroom-
Rob Markman: It was a paparazzi photo, picture of the bathroom, it looked a wreck.
There were drug paraphernalia in the picture, so it was, you know, Whitney not at her highest
point, and she wasn't in the picture, it was a picture of the bathroom, and that was the
album cover.
I know Bobby reacted very passionately about how he was against it.
A lot of people were against it, and-
Babyface: Yeah, look, it's a part of her history.
It's something that actually happened, and the truth is, you can't whitewash it.
It was real, and it's something that actually happened.
And if that picture may stop another young artist from going down that road, then I would
hope it that way, 'cause you can't close your eyes and act like it didn't happen, and put
someone on a pedestal, and only leave them on the pedestal.
You have to accept everything that was a part of them.
And so, in that sense, no, I can't say that it was ... maybe it was in bad taste, but
at the same time, it was a reality, and a reality that is kind of a warning sign to
younger artists, is that that's what can happen.
This is what can happen if you go down that road.
Rob Markman: That was an interesting take. Thank you for weighing in on that.
Real quick, just a couple of more questions, obviously you've been ... you're a legend
in music, and a legend in the rap world, worked a little bit, we just celebrated the 10 year
anniversary of The Carter III, Lil Wayne's album, and you actually worked with Kanye
West, produced the record, you sung on "Comfortable" with Lil Wayne.
How did that come about?
I did not see that coming.
Babyface: I didn't see it coming either.
It just kind of happened, and so it was a record that I did with Kanye, and then next
thing I know, Lil Wayne had cut it, so I still haven't physically been in a studio with Lil
Wayne, which I love the work that he did on that record, and so it'll be ... He's one
person I still would actually like to do actual work with at some point.
Rob Markman: And you also worked with Jay-Z at a turning point in his career, when
He was an underground artist at the time.
'Reasonable Doubt' was an independent record.
He didn't have any real hits outside of the rap world, and "Sunshine" was kind of
the first glimpse that we got of Jay-Z as a potential pop star, who now has a 25 year
career.
Babyface: Yeah, I got a call from Andre Harrell, and from Jeff Burroughs at the time, he said
that, you know, 'cause I wasn't really that familiar with Jay-Z, but they told me that
he was a cool guy, great artist, and would I ... that he wanted me to do this vocal.
And I was like, I was honored that he thought of me.
And so it was fine, and I had no sense of what that record would turn into, or how big
of an artist he would become, it was just one of those things that I kind of did with,
based off of people recommending this cool guy, and that you do it.
Rob Markman: And you know, it's funny, Jay did, at the time, catch a lot of heat for
that record, 'cause it was such a departure from where he was at, but when you look back
in hindsight, it was a necessary departure, for him to start thinking of himself in a
bigger way than just underground rap.
Babyface: Many times, when you're ... many times when you're in the presence of genius,
you don't realize it, and they have an insight that everybody doesn't understand at the same
time.
And so, and it just takes time for you to see it, so there are ... it's not always as
clear, nor is it as traditional, as we look at Stevie Wonder and say, we know Stevie Wonder's
a genius.
Well, the same thing in the hip hop world, there are guys that put tracks together, and
put music together, and that feel good as any copyright that any of us could write,
so we have to give credit where it's due.
Rob Markman: You've done so much work, and you have so much more to go, with Good Vibes
music.
I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes, and the new songwriters that get
birthed out of this new venture that you're doing.
When it's all said and done, when you finally do get to just like look back and celebrate
and marvel at what you've done, I know you're always looking forward, what do you want your
legacy to be?
What do you want people to say about Babyface?
Babyface: You know, the good thing about Good Vibes Music, is regardless of if we ultimately
find someone that we actually sign, in the process of it, for those writers that are
there, and everyone that comes in, they get a chance to sit and talk about music, and
talk about the writing, and the how to write, and what to write, and even while we're doing
that we have mentors that come in, 'cause we had Luke Laird and Ashley Gorley from Nashville
come down, and here we had James Fauntleroy come through, and it was ... it's the kind
of thing that I feel proud about, knowing that I connected those writers with an experience
that will hopefully stay with them the rest of their lives, and they use it as part of it.
I didn't get that opportunity to kind of go sit in a room with writers like that, in the
beginning, and that might have helped me avoid some of the mistakes that I might have made,
just in terms of writing, and how to approach writing.
Ultimately, in the end, when it's all over, I just want people to look at my career with
the music and everything, but to be able to say nice things about me, how I was as a person,
and that I helped them by virtue of how I live my life, and being a person that cares,
and that he's a good guy.
That works for me.
Rob Markman: That's dope.
We can honestly say that by sitting here with you today.
Real quick, man, last thing I want to get in is this little game we play called Record Break.
This is just rapid fire questions, so this, the first thing that comes to your mind, try
not to think about it too much. It's fun. There's no right and wrong answer, but I just
want to get into it.
What's the record you're most proud of?
Tough question-
Babyface: Yeah, that's a tough question.
Record I'm most proud of.
I don't know that I have an answer for that.
It varies on days.
There's certain records that I hear sometimes, that ... I'll hear the Aretha Franklin record
that I did, on the 'Waiting To Exhale' thing, didn't become a big hit, but the way
that she sings the record, and the way it makes me feel, I'm like, I can't believe I
was a part of that, but then I'll think the same thing about doing a record with...
One of the records with Toni Braxton in the beginning.
I'll think the same thing about ... and I'll switch to another one, so I can't really ... I
think maybe that record still hasn't been made yet.
Rob Markman: Okay, that's real.
What was the hardest record you ever had to write?
Babyface: Hardest record ever ... It was hard writing the 'Waiting to Exhale' stuff.
It was not just one record.
It was all those records, 'cause I had to work with Forest Whitaker, and looking at
the movie, and trying to figure out what to say and how to say it, and that I had to get
approval from Whitney, in terms of what artist would actually sing it, so my hands were tied
a little bit, in terms of trying to be creative, so that was a hard record to write.
Rob Markman: The easiest record that you had to write, that kind of just came out the fastest.
Babyface: Probably "The Day," the song "The Day," that came out, that I wrote
in 15 minutes.
Rob Markman: That's amazing.
That's such a beautiful record.
Is there a record that you didn't write, but wish you wrote?
Babyface: There's a bunch of those.
I think a better thing, is what record blew me away when I first heard, I wish I wrote
it, but what record I think changed the way I looked at music was Teddy Riley's, when
he wrote Keith Sweat's "I Want Her".
Rob Markman: That was the beginning of new jack swing.
Babyface: And that came out, it blew me away, and I said, oh my god, where's that coming
from, and how is that happening?
And so, that was all part of, so when we were writing "Every Little Step", and "Don't Be
Cruel", we had to think, dang, we gotta compete with that?
And it didn't seem, so I kind of ran the other way, instead of ran towards it, 'cause he
He was amazing.
I thought that was amazing.
Rob Markman: And it's dope, working with Bruno too, you had said that you would just feel
grateful that he wanted to call you in and work with you.
It's no secret that Bruno was inspired by that era of music that we're talking about
right now, the Teddy Riley, the Babyface, the L.A. Reid, the era of music, the new jack
swing. Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were in that mix as well, so it makes perfect sense why
he would call Babyface to work on his "24 Karat."
Babyface: Look, Bruno's a songwriter, and so that's why ... he's always been a songwriter.
He's an amazing songwriter in the sense of how many genres he's able to touch.
And the truth is, I'm inspired by his writing, and I listen to him.
I steal from him as he steals from me.
Rob Markman: And then, who's the one artist that you haven't written for, but you feel
like you can deliver an incredible record right now.
It doesn't have to be a hit, an incredible record, just a real powerful record.
Babyface: And that's hard to say.
I think that ... I'm not one to talk about what I can deliver, in terms of what I can
deliver a hit or anything, but I think, just in my life, there's artists that I wish I
would have had the chance to work with.
I wish I would have been in the studio with Marvin Gaye.
I wish I could have been in the studio with him.
That experience would have been amazing I think.
And I think that we could have done something special.
I wish I could have, and maybe one day still, I wish I could have worked with Sade, 'cause
I think that voice is just unbelievable.
Her voice is just crazy.
And there's probably another ... There's a number of other artists that I think of but
initially those are the first two that come to mind.
Rob Markman: We gon' put that out in the universe for Sade.
I know you're watching.
Needs to happen.
Finally, man, last thing, I just need you to finish this sentence for me, anything you
want to set the record straight on, just finish the sentence.
For the record ...
Babyface: For the record, I don't have anything I have to set straight.
It is what it is, so if you think it, it might not be true, but what does it matter?
Rob Markman: You heard it from the man himself, Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds.
Thank you, man.
Truly a genius, man.
Thank you for joining us.
Babyface: Appreciate it.
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