KATHERINE: I do believe that God calls us to stuff that we wouldn't choose.
And so, it is a myth to say, "You know, to really be a good Christian is to get it all
in that perfect little thing."
And there are many things I know God called me to that were miserable, they were so hard,
they were so out of my sweet spot, and only in retrospect can I see how he's used it.
So I think, you know, it's not an easy answer.
DAVID: Yeah.
And if I could just build on that, I think the idea that we could plan our steps to the
thing that is right is also a myth.
KATHERINE: All right.
DAVID: And I would have never put myself in the seat that I'm in10 years ago.
But I'm very grateful for it now, and I feel like it's a joy to do it, but there was no,
you know, calculus of how am gonna do this and how will this happen...
KATHERINE: It's your 10-year plan.
DAVID: Yeah.
So I think, I think having an openness too, to the doors that God does open, regardless
of the structure that looks like, understanding too that we go through different seasons of
life with different vocations.
It's not a crazy idea to think that you could be in ministry pastorally, and then in ministry
in the marketplace, at different times in your life, it sounds like that's part of your
journey.
CHRISTOPHER: Sure, Sure.
DAVID: And so, I think we should embrace those things.
But to your point I have a very...
A very even an open hand to them.
CHRISTOPHER: And, you know, and If I could just add, we were talking earlier about collaboration,
and I think it's interesting when God wants to rebuild Israel, in particular Jerusalem.
He calls these, these friends, these companions together, Nehemiah and Ezra.
Ezra the scribe, Nehemiah the civil engineer, and I would just simply say our day and time
needs both, we need scribes we need those who are called to the office of clergy and
ministry.
I hope no one here is saying that is a bad calling, right?
But we also need in the Nehemiahs of the world, and they need each other.
And so, part of the work that I pray will continue to grow and flourish is this work
of how do pastors and entrepreneurs work together?
How do they partner together?
How do they live together and create the good life together?
We should not bifurcate these two servants of the Lord, because both are very important.
We need Ezras, we need Nehemiahs and they need one another.
DAVID: Yeah, I often say, our deepest hopes should be for theologically minded entrepreneurs
and vocationally minded pastors, and the two of those working together.
Greg, what are your thoughts on this, I mean, you're the president of a college.
GREGORY: Well, I would say one of the problems that I see in all of the talk about vocation
is that there is this thing that slipped in that is very unfair to young people, that
vocation means, the truest sense of all that your hopes and dreams can manifest themselves.
And, that is not what vocation means, it is very... as Os Guinness says, it's a very different
thing than talking about career, unfortunately, and this is something that higher education
has done very poorly at, is that we narrowed down people's options by forcing them into
majors rather then giving them lots of experiences.
I think one of the things we need to tell Christian young people, is to prototype different
kinds of things, because there are a lot of people that go into the ministry that can't
preach their way out of a wet paper sack.
And there's also people that don't have the sort of industry to be an entrepreneur.
I know that's the catch phrase I know it's one of the most popular words amongst the
millennial generation.
But entrepreneurs are very, very small number, percentage of the population, and there are
other ways to fulfill your calling from God, other than just your job.
DAVID: I think at the end of the day God puts things on our hearts.
He puts people in front of us, and He asks us to pursue those things.
And I think, sometimes we get that mixed up in, "What bucket do I sit in?
Am I a business person or am I a ministry person?
Or do I do this non-profit thing which is actually like a derivative of the tax code
that the U.S. invented."
And so I think if we can throw those things out, and say there's causes that we care about,
there's people in front of us.
Let me go after those things, and I'll assemble the pieces around what God's put in front
of me.
I think that's a better vocational path that simplifies those things, and actually allows
us to leave some of the baggage of being some of these things, because we also see business
people who have baggage around being in ministry, I mean, we have ministry people who have a
lot of vitriol for the capitalist world.
So, I think getting rid of those worldly constructs is actually very helpful.
CHRISTOPHER: To your point.
if your aspirations are for a particular area where you just simply are not bearing fruit,
then maybe you do need to just get advice, guidance, pray about, Is this my calling,
or have I misdefined success.
Have I had too narrow of a perspective on how God can use me, and that's true for the
business leader, and that's true for the person who wants to be a pastor as well, because
I see a lot of frustrated businesspeople who felt like the only way they could serve God
was to be a pastor.
And they're now trapped in a ministry role that clearly does not fit them and they're
not bearing fruit.
KATHERINE: Well, and some of our idolatry falls into that.
If I really have great joy at being a teacher, but I don't want to be a teacher because it
doesn't make enough money...
CHRISTOPHER: Yes.
KATHERINE: ...then I am letting that picture of my socioeconomic status, get in the way
in something that I might really enjoy and really find meaning in.
So looking at and examining, examining our idols is also helpful, I think, and sort of
the prestige, associated with different careers is stacked against people making decisions.
So in New York we had lots of young people coming out of really good educational institutions.
They sort of felt this need to take the next job at the investment bank job, or the next
job at the consulting company.
And, you know, they have more gifts than anyone in the world.
And they're just following some little railroad track to a career path that has no joy for
them whatsoever.
CHRISTOPHER: So, you know, this is where I love the Gospel of Luke, So the Gospel of
Luke is different than the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Mark is as highlight real, right?
So every moment, is a great moment, it's like watching SportsCenter, you know, where Luke
is a lot more exhaustive and long winded, and I think it is important that we highlight
that every day in business or in pastoral ministry.
It's not gonna be a highlight reel.
It is us being faithful to the daily task of doing good work, and making sure that we
are mindful of the responsibilities and duties that are set before us.
And as we do that these great explosive moments come, they come as a result of us being faithful
to God.
And this is, I think one of the fool's gold that we've given to millennials is this thought
that everybody is gonna change the world, and that's a good concept unless it leads
to us only getting excited about the big things.
And we have a tendency to overlook the importance of dropping your kids off at school every
day, or being faithful and paying your taxes, or showing up to work on time.
So I think that we have to get a vision for God being glorified in the small things which
ultimately lead to big things.
GREGORY: And so, I think there's a responsibility of the leader to notice those mundane things,
actually say they're not mundane, they're essential.
And understand how God has created different people for different roles at different times,
and making sure that we don't have a inappropriate hierarchy in our minds that equates with titles.
CHRISTOPHER: That's good.
GREGORY: Because that's actually not biblical at all.
KATHERINE: I think, the one word that sort of continues to resonate with me is, let's
sort through that, is the word love.
If somehow our faith doesn't result in love.
Then we're not connecting the dots, so that love could be for the co-worker, It could
be for the person that's gonna receive a product that we're making.
Often, it's very mundane.
It's often unlikable people, that in our business work in particular we're still called to love.
So grappling with, all right, how has my heart changed?
How is what I know now that the truth of Christ dying on the cross, and being raised again
from the dead changed my ability to love?
In the business I'm in.
I think we've got to wrestle with that question.
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