I don't want to be in ministry I don't
want to fix this that I have to go back
to church so you're a deaf I wanted to
be have permission to leave Wow I wasn't
prepared to engage with people I didn't
want to meet new people I didn't want to
put the smile on and have the hi I'm
Pauline and you know I didn't have any I
appreciate a space for a check was empty
it was it was done welcome to the focus
on the family broadcast helping families
thrive John I don't know that we think
enough about our pastoral care folks and
sometimes that's taking them for granted
and today we want to concentrate on how
they're serving what the pressures are
for them and maybe as a layman what you
might be able to do to encourage them
you know if you think about a pastor
think of everything they're doing
counseling and praying over hurting
families visiting people in the hospital
and the shut-ins
teaching and preaching of course and I
think feeling great at every Sunday was
it a good sermon or no it was a d-minus
I mean you're saying bye to people at
the door and you're looking at them
saying okay did I hit the mark I mean
it's got to be very you know difficult
at times and I know pastors feel under
tremendous pressure and we want to talk
about that today one so you're aware of
it and two we have a solution that you
might be able to help pastors do better
so we have a panel of guests today in
the studio and they're gonna describe
offering hope and godly encouragement to
pastors and their spouses across Canada
Marshall and Mary Isaiah are with us and
they served as pastors for 35 years in
Ontario and they co-direct the careth
Creek retreat center in Alberta and
we're also joined by Sam and Pauline
Dirksen who were pastors for 22 years
and they now co-direct the careth Pines
retreat center in Manitoba let me say
welcome to all of you to focus now did
we describe that pretty well I mean you
have been pastors for many years and
you've counseled pastors for many years
did I miss anything or was that a fairly
good description no what I would add to
that as you were talking is the fact
that pastors are really first responders
mmm when you think of what they do you
talked about counseling and those
counseling opportunities come not only
in an office it can come in the hospital
room it can come around a coffee table
and as people pour their hearts out to
the pastor pastor hears a lot of things
carries a lot of weight and that can
that's a tremendous burden at times to
carry what are some of those routine
things that we as lay people may not
understand that really do lay a heavy
emotional burden on a pastoral couple I
think is there's this vicarious trauma
in a sense so we're walking alongside
people that are in the hospital in other
places and we're affected by that people
pastors are affected by caring for
others it's not without an effect and I
think of John chapter 8
pardon me Luke chapter 8 where Jesus is
walking in the crowd and a lady the
woman touches him and she's healed and
he turns around and says you know I felt
that some power left me what happened
who is that it does it does take
something we're affected by it no that's
Jesus and we are human pastors we will
be affected by helping others and in the
way we help them we need to be careful
about that
I think another dynamic that happens
when you're coming alongside families
and you're in the the heat of the heat
of the trauma the heat of the despair
and the grieving and you come home and
your family your kids didn't know what
you had to face today right and they
want to engage with you and yet you're
trying but you can't and so it affects
not only in the pastor and his wife or a
spouse but your kids sense that
something's off but they don't know what
happened and so that's an interesting
dynamic that other families may not be
aware oh yeah you know being a pastor's
spouse I mean that's really critical to
what demand how did you feel in that
role you know often to me there's a
sense of having to be perfect making
sure everything is exactly right making
sure the kids behave perfectly but
that's an amazing amount of pressure how
do you know
take the bait to try to be all that well
it was a challenge no question I was a
preacher's kid and so I saw my mom the
way to carry the weight of that so I
think I went into ministry with some
additional baggage but as I grew and I
think it depends on which church right
Church suretrend what environment you're
in how much they expect we were in a
larger church multi staff so I didn't
carry the weight of that sometimes they
weren't even sure who was the lead
pastor's wife and that was that was a
help to me yeah but there were certainly
times a real loneliness and who does
that who does the pastor's wife tell
that she's lonely or she's struggling
and that was a challenge for me how did
you solve that what advice do you have
to the pastor's wife who's listening you
know I I went to God and I said Lord I
really need a close friend and for me I
I had to find it outside my church I
know it was another pastor's wife and
the Lord dropped a name in my heart and
I I said to her we actually went for
coffee and I said do you want to be my
friend she said yeah do you want to be
my friend it was like junior high and
she's a gift to me and God gave her to
me let me paint a picture for those who
are saying you know I don't even know
the world of my pastor I maybe shake his
hand on the way out the door maybe say
hello occasionally but let me give you
some data and have you respond to it
this is research that showed that 50
percent of pastors have said they would
quit if they could 50 percent that right
there should be a jaw-dropper 70 percent
have a lower self esteem now than when
they started in the ministry something
is unhealthy there that shouldn't be the
way it goes what's fueling that kind of
discouragement do you think I think
there's part of it as there's
expectations that a board can have of a
pastor expectations of congregants and
then there are your own expectations and
sometimes what can happen what we see in
here is that people can be motivations
and they're owning somebody else's
expectations and you can never satisfy
people you know we remember one of our
mentors
to us you know that 15% of the
congregation isn't going to like you on
a particular Sunday and give that yeah
just say that again walking to work no
and the next Sunday it'll be a different
15% because what you're saying because
what you're saying or something you did
or something you didn't do in a service
that you did the week before that they
like let me let me interject here have
you found that oftentimes it's because
you've touched a raw nerve I mean
they're responding because you've really
opened something up that's a wound yeah
isn't that true that would be fair I
think most of the time that's accurate
you're stepping on something that maybe
they haven't dealt with yet door well it
isn't that part of the struggle right
you're so you're you're their pastor
right you can't you want to Shepherd
them and you want to guide them and
direct them at the same time they're not
treating you in a way that is making you
feel like you want to Shepherd them
exactly if there's respect and they come
and talk to you where you can see them
nearer face-to-face and you're not
speaking through the bush and that kind
of a thing that is the best way to go
let's be honest about what is the the
issue that you have then we can have a
conversation about it right but others
we can't because it's pastors I think
it's really important for us to also
understand our humanness I think you're
talking marriage advice you actually
have an incredible story about your
situation the pressure that you two were
under and you went to careth Creek you
actually experienced it I think in 2011
right
yeah but Sam what were you doing what
was the situation we'd been in in that
pastored for 19 years at that point and
we were getting tired I would say the
word exhausted would probably a good
word and there was just a number of
things going on health issues in my
family and we were in the middle of a
church building project and there was
tensions and conflicts in our leadership
team and so all of those things together
not just the ministry but all of those
things together I really became really
made us tired made me tired and I felt
pretty exhausted and
wasn't sure what to do about it and so I
remember going to a physician and
talking to him and he took 45 minutes
with me just talking about this kind of
thing and whether there was some
depression involved and and so on and
then about 2 months later I was sharing
my story with someone else and I said
you know sometimes I'm just laying on
the couch on the floor I'm not quite
sure what to do and he looked at me said
Sam I don't know how to answer your
question or I don't know how to solve
your problem but just let me next time
you feel like that give me a phone call
and I'll come and lay down beside you
and for me it was just in a ha moment a
god moment that helped me understand
that he believed me and and now we could
work with it
yeah but until that point you just felt
like where do I go from here what do I
do
Pauline how do you sure that up you see
your husband in that situation of course
you're carrying that burden as well and
but probably feeling like I've got to be
everything here well I definitely felt
the pressure to try to you know how it
is when you're married and your spouse
is at a lower point you want to be more
positive more optimistic and carry more
and you often that vacillates right so
one is down and the other is up and but
we found herself at the place we were
both down I just didn't have energy
either to to encourage Sam because I
wasn't feeling that much encouraged
either in fact I was getting more and
more angry you know it's it's one thing
to to deal with the needs that people
have in lives of unbelievers but when
tension comes within believers that's
for me for a loop I didn't I didn't
expect that yeah and with the it went it
did and it rocked my faith I was like
Lord you know you've called us here and
you've called them here and why is there
tension why why can't we it shouldn't be
this way yeah your church that's
probably why you see that number of 50
percent would do something else that
they could 50 percent of pastors 70
percent feel less equipped now than when
they started in the ministry and more
discouraged
careth retreat describe that experience
for yourselves given the low point that
you're both in so you went to careth in
2011 as pastors as a pastoral couple
engaging it what was it like why did it
help you we walk to the front doors and
so what are we doing here we don't even
think it was for myself it wasn't the
time factor it was I don't want to be in
ministry I don't want to fix this that I
have to go back to church so you're a
dad I wanted to be have permission to
leave Wow
I wasn't prepared to engage with people
I didn't want to meet new people I
didn't want to put the smile on and have
the hi I'm Pauline you know I didn't
have any I appreciate a space for your
check was empty it was it was done when
we got to go you ended up having lunch
and we got back in the car we put back
the seats and we fell asleep we were
just tired and so then we made our way
to the retreat center and when we get
there they told us hey you know what
there's no pressure you can relax you
can rest you have permission to rest
right now and we did so the first couple
of days we did what we needed to but we
slept a lot yeah and we got some good
energy back and that's at careth we kind
of recognized yeah we are we are human
and we need to embrace our humanness and
recognize that we have limitations but
you know the permission that came for me
at at the creek was the fact that you
know you have permission to be human as
you serve I don't have to be some
superwoman that has you know as you
mentioned the kids all had to be in tow
and their clothes had to be such and
your smile on your face I had permission
to be real and I have permission to hurt
when you have someone in your church
that you're not just helping a grieving
family but you're grieving too and and
once when we left there it's not like we
had all this magical formula now to go
home and everything is you know
miraculously changed right still
discussion the stuff was still there but
we now had tools to to learn how to
minister from a healthier place Marshall
and Mary we're not gonna let you off the
hook good but you also have a powerful
story about a couple that you
encountered at the retreat center there
in Alberta describe the challenges that
that couple was going through it's
probably very similar
but why did that story stick out in your
mind they were a missionary couple and
had come back to Canada you know you
hear stories all the time and this one
was a case of man we couldn't really
find anything that went well for them
overseas in fact she was diagnosed with
PTSD and when they came they only came
to careth because their denominational
leader said you are going so they came
in very closed at first he was very
distant she was kind of open as we would
talk and but he you know there was no
desire to be there because they didn't
think anything could ever be fixed they
were really in a state of hopelessness
and they so we went through the week
with them and we heard their story and
and we were grieving with them Sunday
night we and in the course of the week
the Sunday night is beautiful because
it's a communion service and at the end
of the communion service we love to pray
with each of the couples so Mary and I
were going we put her we just knelt them
in front of this couple and the Lord
dropped this verse into my heart and I
thought oh how do I share this verse and
I thought okay it's not going away so
I'm just gonna pray this verse over him
so I pray this verse and after at the
end of the at the end of it he says to
me I need to talk to you and I'm
thinking yeah you probably do and you're
probably gonna let me have it because he
just still wasn't open so for an hour
and a half he really just opened up even
more but then he said to me you know
that we were gonna quit we're going back
we were leaving here Tuesday we had an
appointment Tuesday afternoon to meet
with our denominational leader we were
leaving the ministry but he said that
verse you prayed over me is the verse
God called me into the ministry huh and
it was a reminder that God's not done
with us we felt done
we felt finished we felt as if we'd come
to the end but your prayer tonight has
sparked hope that's amazing yeah and
it's beautiful
and it's tragic yeah I mean there that
we get so beaten up so rundown that it
has to be that desperate moment but what
a great testimony they have that
didn't even get them yeah and that God
still had a plan for them Mary tell me
in in that context again when you're
ministering to the wives of these
spouses that feel so hopeless
I mean hopelessness is a hard thing to
overcome in any walk of life but when
you're a person that should be full of
hope because you're a Christian and
you're Christian leader you're a pastor
you should be full of this hope and you
don't have it what do you do I find it's
the lack of hope and it's also what I'm
seeing I I went through it certainly in
my own life but I'm hearing it all the
time and pastors wives is a deep sense
of disappointment because you didn't
think it would be like this you didn't
you prayed that it would be different
you believed it would be different you
parented different and yet your face
somewhere along the line with this
profound sense of disappointment one
author says that it arrives so quietly
this disappointment I didn't even know
it was there until I spoke it out loud
and I I certainly felt it in my own life
and we see that all the time in pastors
wives it was a during one of our first
retreats and again during this communion
service we were praying and for the
couple's and we just knelt down and just
laid our hands on them and began to pray
just a simple prayer and the pastor's
wife began to weep from this really deep
place and you could tell that something
was happening in the next day she said
to us I'm so sorry I I could not contain
this deep cry of my heart and I said can
you tell me what was happening and she
said when you knelt down and you you
laid your hands on us and began to pray
I realized that that was the first time
in over two decades that a pastor knows
I've had ever come and prayed with us
and she said that first time was when
they and the last time was when they
sent us into ordination when we were a
day into the ministry and she said for
two decades I've been without we've been
without that
yeah so I'll out put no input yeah and
she said it was so I wonder what our
lives would have been like a minister
would have been like if we would have
had other leaders coming around and
praying for us so it mount this met this
felt need in her heart and so and we we
see that all the time happening yeah
marry what you mentioned the
disappointment is that disappointment
with God or with his people or with your
performance it's a great question I
think it's a combination of things for
me
it was disappointing with God I I really
had a crisis of faith in 2014 I was
deeply disappointed and I did know and
it was with God and I didn't know who to
go to
because who does the pastor's wife go to
and so I just said one morning Marshall
came in I was I can remember exactly
where I was standing and it wasn't that
long ago is 2014 and I said to him I
want you to know I'm not praying anymore
it's it's a it's Donna I'm done I'll sit
in the front row with you I won't
jeopardize your position but I want you
to know I'm done praying God's not
answering her prayers and so I I stopped
praying and our war room my war room is
no longer the war room it was just our
spare bedroom but I didn't stop reading
my Bible and God spoke to me directly
out of Romans 11 verses 33 to 36 one
morning and I realized I was gonna have
to make a decision was I going to trust
him not knowing what the outcome was was
I going to trust that he was a good
father and that he was working behind
the scenes and it was a tipping point
for me and I knew I had to make a
decision what did what was Romans 11 to
give us the verse so weekend it was oh
the depths of the riches of his wisdom
and knowledge how unsearchable his ways
and his paths beyond tracing out who can
know the mind of the Lord or who has
ever been his counselor who has ever
given to God that God should repay him
for through him and to him and in him
are all things
and at that moment I was confronted with
my own need I felt God owed me an
explanation why he wasn't doing things
or why he was doing things and I knew I
was going to have to decide what was I
gonna do not knowing not knowing well I
appreciate so much that vulnerability
you know and that's where we learned
yeah the pretending Pauline that we
talked about a moment ago
marries really hitting it there let's
just be honest and I so appreciate that
it does give us an action item for those
who are in the pews you know those of us
that aren't in pastoral leadership how
we can ask our pastor we can pray for
them right there I mean the fact that
you have this story that that couple had
not been prayed for for two decades
should be a wake-up call to the rest of
us sitting there how blessed they would
be and that's very true of most pastors
that's probably not unique to be able to
go up at the end of the service when
things are quiet and done and say can we
just pray for you
they Christ are crying yes they do
nobody has done that and we have an
opportunity to help support pastors to
go to careth retreat center and and get
into a better place when you look at 50%
again that say if I could do something
else I would because I'm done and you've
described so eloquently these stories of
pastors that have come to care with your
own stories about kind of that well of
water you receive their living water let
me pop one last question and y'all can
answer one of your whatever a practical
thing so someone's heard this they've
noticed maybe they've talked to the
pastor's wife and they know there's some
difficulty what is something we can do
to help our pastors today I'll tell you
one of the things that that we found
neat was gift cards for them yeah yeah
we take a date night here's a here yeah
and so we've we we were the
beneficiaries of that and then now that
we're sitting in the pew for in October
that's what we did for our pastor we
said hey here's a gift card this is for
you and your wife you find somebody to
take care of your kids and and then he
sent us a note and said man that was
such a neat idea that you had for us
when I so appreciate pastors
appreciation month but HB London who was
that focus started that I think even
hallmark picked up on it started doing
cards so when you get back that's good
idea but I think H would also say he
laments the fact that that's great we
are concentrating in October but we
gotta love another month yeah
and how beautiful it is to do some
things throughout the year so that's it
that's a great idea thanks for that
yeah can I add one sure okay so when I
we have four kids and so the house was
busy and we had a couple approaches one
time so you know what we're taking your
kids go-karting and you can't come you
guys get the night off and we're taking
your kids as a mom to have somebody pour
into your kids yeah because of the role
that you play and the difference that
you're making in their lives that just
does something to you that's fantastic
you know and it's evident today because
we we two were in the same church for 22
years and our kids that's home for them
yeah and it's multi-generational and
it's because those of those events
throughout those times in Haworth we're
gonna take them that was huge yes yes
well said thanks for being with us thank
you hey I'm John fuller and thanks for
watching get more info about focus over
here and more from our guests over there
and be sure to subscribe to our channel
as well
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