IT'S NO LONGER OBSOLETE. >> WITH ME FORMER SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE WILLIAM COHEN. GOOD EVENING, SIR.
>> GOOD EVENING. >> SECRETARY COHEN, HOW WOULD
YOU DESCRIBE NOW THAT THE DAY IS OVER IN MOSCOW, THE TRIP THAT
SECRETARY TILLERSON HAD IN MOSCOW, MEETING WITH SECRETARY
LAVROV AND PRESIDENT PUTIN? >> WELL, IT WAS NECESSARY FOR
HIM TO GO. I'M GLAD THAT HE WENT AND I
THINK HE CONDUCTED HIMSELF IN A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD MANNER.
HE'S A MAN OF GREAT SUBSTANCE AND I THINK PERSUASION, AND HE
MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE UNITED STATES IS UNHAPPY WITH THE ROLE
THAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN PLAYING AND SUPPORTING ASSAD, AND THAT IT
HAD TO STOP. >> ALL RIGHT.
WAS IT A SUCCESS? >> I THINK IT WAS A SUCCESS.
HE ALSO MET WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN AND THEY'VE HAD A RELATIONSHIP
IN THE PAST AND I'M SURE WAS ALSO STRAIGHTFORWARD, WITHOUT A
LOT OF NAME CALLING, VERY BUSINESSLIKE.
YOU SAY SUCCESS BECAUSE SECRETARY TILLERSON PUT FORTH
THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT, AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT WE CANNOT
TOLERATE THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAIN ANYWHERE, BUT
ESPECIALLY ON THE PART OF ASSAD. SO, I THINK IT WAS A SUCCESS
FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. >> I HAVE A HARD TIME
UNDERSTANDING YOUR CHARACTERIZATION AS A SUCCESS
WHEN THE PRODUCT OF IT WAS THAT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO
NATIONS -- AND THESE AREN'T JUST THE BAHAMAS AND BARBADOS.
THESE ARE THE TWO FOREMOST NUCLEAR POWERS OF THE WORLD AT
THE LOWEST TRUST LEVEL EVER. HE DIDN'T WALK OUT OF THERE
SAYING THERE IS A DOOR OPEN. HE CAME OUT OF IT WITH A VERY
BLEAK MESSAGE. >> WELL, IT WAS A SUCCESS IN THE
FACT THAT WE WERE TALKING AND NOT HURLING STONES OR ROCKETS AT
EACH OTHER. SITTING DOWN AND LAYING OUT YOUR
CASE AS TO WHY YOU TOOK ACTION, WHY YOU MAY TAKE ACTION IN THE
FUTURE, AND LISTENING TO HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART AS SUSUCH,
THINK THAT'S A SUCCESSFUL MEETING.
AND YOU BOTH LAYOUT EXACTLY WHAT YOUR POSITIONS ARE AND HOPE THAT
THE RHETORIC WILL CALM DOWN AND THERE WILL BE A CHANGE ROUGHLY
IN POSITION AS THE DAYS EVOLVE. >> BUT HE COMPLETELY DENIED THAT
THE RUSSIANS COMPLETELY DENIED THAT ASSAD WAS BEHIND THE GAS
ATTACK, CALLING FOR INVESTIGATION.
I MEAN, THEY'VE DONE EVERYTHING BUT SHOW ANY SORT OF WILLINGNESS
TO HAVE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT IT. THEY'RE JUST THWARTING EVERY
SINGLE EFFORT AND THEIR BIG PAL ASSAD, YOU KNOW, HE JUST DID THE
UNTHINKABLE. >> NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
TO GO BACK AND THINK OF WHAT RUSSIA HAS DONE, THEY TRIED TO
DESTABILIZE THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM.
THEY SHOT DOWN OR AT LEAST THEIR MISSILE SHOT DOWN MALAYSIAN
AIRLINES NUMBER 17. THEY PREVENTED ANYONE FROM
INVESTIGATING IT TO PROVE IT WAS A RUSSIAN MISSILE THAT SHOT THEM
DOWN. SO, THIS IS STANDARD PROCEDURE
FROM THE RUSSIAN'S POINT OF VIEW.
THEY DEND TO DENY, DEFLECT, AND DISSEMINATE FAKE INFORMATION.
SO, THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL. I THINK WHAT IS STILL A
SUCCESSFUL THAT WE'RE NOT YELLING AT EACH OTHER, BUT WE'RE
SITTING DOWN AND MAKING A CASE AS ADULTS AND SAYING, HERE' HER
WHAT'S TOLERABLE, HERE'S WHAT'S NOT.
LET'S SEE IF WE CAN AGREE ON A WAY FORWARD.
THAT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE WAS SUCCESSFUL RATHER THAN SECRETARY
TILLERSON CANCELLING THE MEETING OR PRESIDENT PUTIN SAYING I'M
NOT MEETING WITH YOU AND WE'RE SIMPLY NOW GOING TO START RAFRP
ETTINGER UP THE RHETORIC AND POSSIBLY EVEN MILITARY ACTION.
I LOOK AT IT AS A POSITIVE STEP FORWARD.
>> I GUESS YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT HALF FULL, I'M LOOKING AT IT
HALF EMPTY. RUSSIA VETOED THE CONDEMNATION
TODAY, AND IS STANDING BY SYRIA, AND YOU HAVE THE SECRETARY OF
STATE SAYING THE LOWEST TRUST LEVEL EVER.
I SAY THEY HAD A NICE AFTERNOON TOGETHER WHERE THEY DIDN'T YELL
AT EACH OTHER, BUT I DON'T SEE ANY SORT OF PROGRESS AND I DON'T
SEE ANY SORT OF EFFORT TO BRING DOWN THE RHETORIC OR TO MAKE
THINGS SAFER FOR PEOPLE IN SYRIA.
>> I THINK ON THE SURFACE YOU WILL NOT SEE MUCH CHANGE.
PRESIDENT PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO COME FORWARD AND SAY GEE, YOU'RE
RIGHT, WE MADE A MISTAKE, THIS GUY IS A BUTCHER AND WE'RE NOT
GOING TO SUPPORT HIM ANY MORE. YOU'RE SEEING WHAT'S TAKING
PLACE ON THE SURFACE. BELOW THE SURFACE I'M SURE
CONTACTS ARE GOING TO BE REINSTITUTED.
THEY'VE ALREADY INDICATED THEY'RE GOING TO PUT BACK ON THE
TABLE, AT LEAST, THE DE-CONFLICTION PROCESS THAT KEPT
US FROM SHOOTING EACH OTHER. AND, SO, I THINK LOOK BELOW THE
SURFACE, YOU'LL SEE THAT CONTACTS WILL BE RESUMED AT A
DIFFERENT LEVEL PERHAPS, BUT NONETHELESS, THE RUSSIANS CAN'T
AFFORD TO HAVE THIS GO AWRY NOR CAN WE.
WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER, UNDERSTANDING EACH
OTHER'S FAULT LINES AND I THINK THAT SECRETARY TILLERSON MADE IT
VERY CLEAR WHAT OURS ARE. SO, I WOULD SAY THERE WILL BE
PROGRESS MADE. IT WILL BE SLOW, BUT JUST
REMEMBER THIS IS A RUSSIA THAT TRIED TO DESTROY OUR -- FAITH IN
OUR OWN POLITICAL SYSTEM. THAT'S AN ATTACK UPON THE HEART
OF AMERICA AND IT'S NOT -- >> THEY'RE DENYING THAT.
THEY DENIED THAT. I MEAN, THERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
YOU RAISED THAT EXAMPLE. IT WASN'T LIKE -- I GUESS WE GO
BACK TO THE HALF EMPTY HALF FULL.
THE RUSSIANS DENIED THAT. I KNOW IT'S THE RUSSIANS.
I REALIZE IT'S NOT EASY. I GUESS I'M LOOKING FOR
SOMETHING TO GRAB ONTO TO GIVE ME SOME SORT OF HOPE THAT THIS
IS DEE ESCALATING AND NOT THE OPPOSITE, AND THAT THERE WILL BE
MORE HELP FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMS IN SYRIA AND,
YOU KNOW, AND OTHER PLACES OF THE WORLD, WHETHER IT'S CRIMEA
OR UKRAINE. >> WELL, THERE WAS PROGRESS MADE
TODAY. PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME OUT AND
SAID THAT NATO IS NOT IRRELEVANT, NOT OBSOLETE.
THAT'S A VERY MAJOR STEP FORWARD AND IT'S A SIGNAL TO RUSSIA THAT
HE'S NOT JUST DEALING WITH THE UNITED STATES, HE'S DEALING WITH
28 MEMBERS OF THE NATO ALLIANCE. THAT'S A STEP FORWARD TO SAY,
PRESIDENT PUTIN, YOU'RE ALONE ON THIS.
IT COMES BACK TO THIS WHOLE NOTION OF AMERICA FIRST.
HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP ABANDONED THAT?
NO. YOU CAN'T HAVE AMERICA FIRST IF
YOU DON'T HAVE OTHER ALLIES WITH YOU.
IF IT'S AMERICA FIRST, YOU CAN'T BE ALOE.
THAT TO ME IS A POSITIVE STATEMENT.
>> THE FACT THE PRESIDENT HAS CHANGED HIS POSITION SAYING NATO
IS NO LONGER OBSOLETE, I THOUGHT THAT ACTUALLY RATCHETED UP ON
NATO. I THOUGHT IT WAS ANOTHER BAD
SIGN THAT THINGS WERE -- TEMPERATURES WERE NOT COMING
DOWN WITH RUSSIA. >> NO, IT'S A GOOD SIGN.
IT'S A GOOD SIGN TO SHOW WE ARE UNITED, THAT WE HAVE AN ALLIANCE
THAT IS THE BEST MILITARY POLITICAL ALLIANCE IN THE WORLD,
HAS BEEN. SO, THAT IS A SIGNAL TO RUSSIA
SAYING, LOOK, WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW IS LEADING DOWN A PATH IN
WHICH IT'S VERY DANGEROUS. YOU'RE SUPPORTING SOMEBODY WHO
IS VERY DANGEROUS. WE HAVE 28 MEMBERS HERE WHO ARE
PREPARED TO SUPPORT THE UNITED STATES IN PROTECTING AND TRYING
TO PROTECT INNOCENT CIVILIANS. SO, IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE US
ON, YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE 28 OF US ON.
THAT TO ME GIVES US MORE LEVERAGE.
IT PRESENTS A MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN THAT HE'S
DEALING WITH AN ALLIANCE NOW, AND JUST NOT THE UNITED STATES.
I THINK THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. THAT WILL MAKE PEACE MORE LIKELY
THAN NOT IN MY JUDGMENT. >> AND LET ME POINT OUT THAT YOU
HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.
I DO NOT. YOU ARE A U.S. SENATOR, I WAS
NOT. AND I JUST HOPE THAT YOU'RE SO
RIGHT ABOUT THIS AND THAT I'M DEAD WRONG
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