(intense music)
- Inspiring you to build the life of your dreams,
by teaching you how to create a career you love.
This is The Job Lab Podcast, with your host,
Nick Murphy.
- Hey there, my friend, and welcome to Episode Three
of the Job Lab Podcast.
My name is Nick Murphy, and hey, thank you
for being here and spending some time with me today.
I'm really grateful and honored that you have chosen
to do that.
I know there are no shortage of things out there
in the universe clamoring for your undivided attention,
so whether you give me three minutes, 40,
I really appreciate you being here and taking the time.
If you're coming back to us again, thank you twice,
and if you're a new listener, I'm really happy
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So now that you are here, please do subscribe
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If you missed last week, I invite you to go back
and check it out.
I chatted with John Stout, a talent acquisition leader,
a groovy talent acquisition leader at that,
and we talked about how HR leaders view the world
and what we, as working professionals, can do
to engage with them, both who are seeking to move jobs
and also, how best to move around the organization
and even get promoted.
And today's guest is an absolute rock star at her craft,
which happens to be negotiating with competence.
Melissa Hereford has over 22 years of experience
teaching people how to become better negotiators.
She's been training the huge international companies
to train their teams as well as worked one-on-one
and in a group setting as a coach.
So she really gets it.
She's seen it from every angle, and I know
you'll learn something today.
In my conversation with Melissa, I ask her all about
how to uncover and identify new opportunities
to negotiate at work because I gotta be honest,
I always thought negotiation was salary negotiation,
and so once I was in a role, well, that ship has sailed,
my friend.
But that's not the case whatsoever.
So we chat about that, and then I ask her,
why is negotiation such a scary word
and why are we so afraid to just ask for what we want?
How do we get better at that ask, and why should you care
about becoming a better negotiator?
At the end of the episode, she's created a special gift
just for you, my listeners, and you definitely don't
want to miss that.
So without further ado, let's get right into
my conversation with Melissa Hereford.
Welcome, my friends, to Episode Three
of The Job Lab Podcast.
We are joined today by Melissa Hereford,
and Melissa's been teaching people how to negotiate
for more than 22 years.
Through her workshop, Negotiate with Confidence,
she teaches skills to get ahead and get along,
and teaches you how to confidently ask for what you want
without worrying that you're going to be called
bossy or too aggressive.
Melissa, welcome.
Thanks for joining me.
- Hey, Nick.
It's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
- Just take a quick second and fill in any gaps
from that bio, and give us a little insight
into your personal life, and we'll get rocking
about negotiation.
- Yeah, well I started working in negotiation training
about 23 years ago.
I lucked out.
I got hired by a company that teaches people
how to negotiate in Fortune 1000 companies,
so I really spent my entire career working with people
in corporate environments.
I have a deep understanding of what it's like
to work within a bunch of different industries,
because our clients ranged from pharmaceuticals
to building equipment, to high tech,
and just about everything in between,
which is a lot of fun.
It gave me insights into what people struggle with the most
in their day-to-day negotiations,
as well as the human components of negotiation
and how we deal with rejection, and whether or not
we ask again, how we get back on that bicycle
and keep going, even when we get a "no."
So it's been a passion of mine.
Negotiation really encompasses so much of our
human experience, how we interact with one another,
how we talk to one another.
It's really about the day-to-day components
of our conversations, how we can use our words
to be more effective or less effective,
if we don't really practice and get good
at the things that are important.
- So negotiation's one of those words
that freaks a lot of people out.
So how do we get more comfortable
with what it actually is and get better
at doing it ourselves?
- So, yes, negotiation is one of those things
that people dread.
I think it's in the top 10, for sure, of things
that people hate to do.
And the question is why?
Why do we hate to negotiate?
And after working with hundreds if not thousands
of business professionals over all these years,
I've really narrowed it down to one thing,
and that's our fear of rejection,
our fear of getting a "no."
Then when you dig a little deeper and start to ask,
"Why is it that we're so afraid of getting a 'no'?"
Our business lives and our personal lives
are so intertwined these days, and we really identify
with who we are through the lens
of our professional personality.
What we do defines us so much as a human.
So when we ask for something that's important
and somebody says "no," oftentimes we just take it
too personally.
And this is especially true when you're looking for a job.
It's true in your everyday negotiations.
But when you're looking for a job, so much
of negotiating when it comes to salary,
if they say "no" to what I want as a salary,
that reflects on me as a human.
That is really hard to take and hard to get over,
and you have to practice and learn skills to get over
that rejection and to not take it personally.
- So how do we make it less scary?
Is it really just a matter of asking so many times
and being told "no" so much that you just frankly
get over it, and you don't care what the answer is?
Or is there another way to get really good at negotiation
or practice making that ask that doesn't just
set you up to be rejected over and over?
- Yes, that's a great question, and there are a number
of skills that you can learn to use.
It really comes down to starting with creating a script
and then practicing that script a hundred times
until you get comfortable saying it.
That's the first step.
Practicing it in front of the mirror, practicing it
to your friends, practicing it to your mom,
to your significant other, until those words making the ask
really do start to role off your tongue more effectively,
so you can say it without getting nervous or being afraid.
And then, practicing in the low stakes environment,
in your everyday negotiations, when you're asking people
for a different deadline, when you're asking people
to be a part of a project team, when you're scoping
a new project.
In those low stakes negotiations, if you just practice
and get used to asking for more of what you want,
then when you do the big negotiations, the ones
that feel like you're more emotionally triggered
during those negotiations, they just come
so much more easily because you've changed your habits,
and you've gotten used to making the ask
and responding in a way that isn't so personally triggering.
- So in a work environment, I've worked with people
like this, and I think in a way, it's part of our society
and part of our conditioning, that when someone asks
you to do something at work, it's not really an agreement,
it's not an ask, it's "I expect you to do this,
"and you work for me, so you go do it."
How can we introduce negotiation for little things
into our work life in order to make sure
that we're getting what we want or that we're,
if nothing else, just setting boundaries,
and at maximum, maybe you're building credibility
inside the organization?
How do we do that, and what are the best opportunities
to do that in a normal work day?
- Yeah, so curiosity is your number one skill.
I spent my career working with salespeople
and helping them negotiate with their client
and teaching salespeople how to negotiate
with their clients.
And salespeople are really good at, for example,
using the words that you just used.
"I expect this by this deadline."
And if I just responded to every single salesperson
who asked me for something without getting curious
about why do you need it, tell me about what else
is going on, where is that deadline coming from,
I would have spent every moment of every day
responding to requests.
And that's not an effective way to live.
For one thing, you end up working 80 hours a week
when you may really not need to.
When I use curiosity, and when I advise other people
to use curiosity, it sound more like this:
you come to me and say, "Hey, Melissa,
"can you get me this client report by the end of the day?"
And what you're really saying is, "I expect you to do that."
Now most people respond to that.
You're an authority figure, and you're asking me
to do something for you.
Maybe you're my boss, and maybe you're not my boss,
but if my immediate response is, "Yes, sir.
"Okay, Nick, I will get that to you by the end of the day,"
there is no room for negotiation.
I'm just responding and saying, "Yes."
And your job will very quickly spiral out of control,
and you'll be working way more hours than you want.
But if I take a moment and ask you a question.
"Hey, Nick, I'm curious, why do you need this
"by the end of the day?" and I use the words "I'm curious,"
because then I come across as genuinely curious
as opposed to being defensive, you may say,
and this is what probably 80% of the time
the salespeople I work with would say,
"I don't know.
"I just need it, and I thought the end of the day
"sounded like enough time."
(both chuckle)
- That's a super scientific deadline.
- Not exaggerating when I say that.
People really do make up deadlines.
Or maybe they don't make up a deadline.
Maybe they really do need it by the end of the day,
but you want to find out whether or not that's true.
Oftentimes, I would hear things like,
"Well, I'm going on a client trip.
"I'm going to see a client.
"I'm going to be flying all day tomorrow,
"and I want to read it while I'm on the plane."
"Oh, okay, so you're not leaving until tomorrow.
"What time does your flight leave?
"Will you be checking your email
"while you're on the flight?"
And once you start asking those kinds of questions,
maybe you don't need to do it by the end of the day.
Maybe you can get it by noon tomorrow.
Are you going to be reading the whole presentation,
or are there just highlights that would be
the most helpful to you?
But most people respond to someone who is in a higher
authority position than they are by just saying "yes."
- I get asked a lot about millennials, and how do you
handle millennials better.
And it's interesting in listening to you talk about this.
It seems like one of the knocks on millennials
from a lot of higher ups inside organizations
is that they're always asking questions.
Like, "Just shut up and do it."
And I've always kind of had their back.
I'm a couple of years too old to be a millennial,
but they're just curious.
They're just trying to have a full understanding
of the scope.
And so are millennials just better natural negotiators?
- I think they are, and part of that comes from ...
Well, I don't know if they're better negotiators.
I haven't seen any data on that.
But I think they are more genuinely curious.
And if that is what you see happening in the workplace,
then bravo, I say.
Now, why is it that people get annoyed
when you're asking questions?
And I think part of that has to do with the fact
that we're all so busy, and when you look at our society
in general, curiosity in general is down.
We're not asking questions around the tough things,
like, "Why do you believe the things that you believe?"
and we go straight into defensive mode
because we're so pressed for time.
We're reading more, we're being bombarded with messages
constantly from people trying to sell us things,
we're trying to keep up with Facebook and Instagram,
all our social media, and when we get crunched for time,
we become less patient and maybe are less willing
to answer those questions.
- It's ironic, isn't it, that we're crunched for time
and we're asking less questions at a point
in the human experience, if you will, or evolution
that gives us as much information at our fingertips
as any person has ever been able to access in their life.
It seems counterintuitive in a lot of ways to become
less curious instead of taking advantage of all
of that incredible information that's just so easy
to access.
- It really is, but we have to manage our brain's ability
to take information in, and we do that by segmenting
and by choosing, "Well, I'm not going to read
"The New York Times today because I don't have time,"
and choosing what we're going to focus on.
And I'd say, if you're going to choose what to focus on,
choose those personal interactions and those conversations
that you're having live with other people
over social media, because that kind of curiosity
is going to get you further in your personal connections,
your authentic connections that you have
with the people that you work with, and those kinds
of connections will help you get ahead in every part
of your career and your life.
- I've never heard negotiation reframed as curiosity,
but for me, just listening to you hear
it for the first time, it's disarming.
It makes it seem more accessible.
It makes it seem like something that we can all do.
You just let your inner child come out.
Like my kids ask 40,000 why questions,
or "can I, can I, can I?"
Like, agh!
Just stop asking questions!
But it's super disarming to think about it as curiosity.
But to play devil's advocate for the listener out there
who now has bought in and says, "Okay, I get that.
"I'm going to ask more questions.
"I'm going to be more curious because it's going
"to benefit me, but my boss is just a complete
"pain in the rear.
"There's no way that they're going to go for this."
What are the best situations to keep an eye out for
to dip your toe in the water with this tactic,
and get a little practice negotiating with a boss
that is prone to just say, "Because I said so?"
- So you might try, first of all, use a softener,
"I'm curious," just to prime the pump and let them know
you're going to ask a question, and then, if you know
that this person is impatient and tends to not want
to answer questions, tell them how many questions
you're going to ask.
"I'd like to ask you two questions.
"Is that okay?"
And there may be a percentage of the time
where they're going to say "no."
Most people, especially if they know that there's an end
to the number of questions that you're going to ask them ...
When I think about little kids and them asking you
a million questions, that is annoying.
So to deal with a tough boss in a situation like that,
I'd probably say, "Hey, I have a couple of questions
"about this project.
"Can I ask you these two questions?"
- That makes sense.
That makes perfect sense.
So, you've worked with a lot of salespeople.
You've worked with a lot of people teaching them
how to negotiate.
Flip that around, and what advice would you give
for someone who's listening that might be
in a leadership position?
How can they encourage their team to negotiate,
and is that something that leadership would want them
to learn how to do?
Do they feel like they're going to be taken advantage of
if they create a bunch of great negotiators
inside their organization among their direct reports?
- Well, there's no doubt that managers feel
like a deer in the headlight when somebody comes in
and says, "I'd like to talk to you about my career,"
or "I'd like to talk to you about my salary."
But managers need to be prepared for that, though,
because the number one advice that I'm giving to people
is to negotiate, and if you're, as a manager,
and I've been in a management position as well
many times in my career, that part of your job as a manager
is to manage your people and to advise them on their career
and point them in the right direction.
And there's a saying, I can't remember exactly what it is,
but it's something like, "You can teach a man to fish
"or give him a fish."
If you have employees on your team that you're just
giving them fish everyday, you're essentially saying,
"Do these five things," you're more like a dictator,
and the people who work on your team are not going
to be satisfied for very long if they're ambitious.
And you want people who are high performers.
You want people who are curious
because it may take a little more time and effort
on your part to actually manage people like that,
but those are the people who are going to come up
with solutions that you've never thought of.
And you don't want to be the dictator who's saying,
"Look, do it my way or the highway," because all
creative options that other people on your team
are bringing into your workplace, their diverse background,
where they went to school, how they were raised,
all the things that make them interesting people
and the reason you hired them, curiosity and
a drive to have those kinds of conversations,
those are the people that are going to come up
with the innovative ideas, the creative ideas,
and the ideas that are going to help you succeed
as a boss, as a manager, as a department,
in every single project that you work on.
- So for the listener that's out there that,
they feel curious, but maybe they have,
whether it's insecurity, whether they're just more quiet,
whether it's just not their style to ruffle feathers
or to ask for things, what other skills, what other tips
would you give that person to get out of their comfort
zone and make those asks?
- Look for areas where you might be making assumptions.
So I talk to people all the time about assumptions,
and assumptions are kind of the killer of all creativity.
So let's just take the simplest situation,
where you're walking down the hall, and you pass
a coworker, and you say, "Hi," and they don't say "hi"
back to you.
And your first assumption is, "Oh, they're mad at me,"
or "They don't like me," or "It's something negative
"about me."
And people in general always jump to that assumption
that "I did something wrong" or "there's something
"wrong here that I'm on the other end of."
So challenge yourself, first of all, "Am I making
"an assumption about the situation?"
And let's go back to our example where we're talking
about somebody who says that they have a deadline,
and you're making the assumption that that deadline is real.
So first of all, challenge your own assumptions,
and even if you're uncomfortable asking questions,
just push yourself a little bit harder to be curious
and ask questions, because you're making a choice right
now in your life, "Am I going to be the kind of person ..."
Even introverts can be really good at asking questions.
"Am I going to be the kind of person who just accepts
"whatever is given to me, or am I going to be the kind
"of person who can move myself forward?"
And as far as we know, we only have one shot on this planet,
so asking yourself those important questions
and then saying, "What is one little area where I can
"challenge myself to not make an assumption
"and ask a question in this moment?"
Even these tiny little baby steps forward
you will find will start to open up the world for you
in a different way, and a way that you didn't think
was possible before.
Because you don't want to go through your life
just accepting whatever some boss is in the mood
to give you today.
You want to take control of your destiny,
even if it's in little ways that will help you
to keep your workload to a more manageable level,
to start setting boundaries, to not be walked over,
to be the kind of person who cam move your life forward
proactively.
- So Melissa is dropping a lot of value here
around the benefits of negotiation.
Right after this break, I'm going to ask her specifically
what are the biggest benefits to people
who become great negotiators, and we're also going
to play a little rapid fire, right after this.
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- Welcome back to The Job Lab.
We are talking with Melissa Hereford,
a negotiation expert, and Melissa, if I'm really
uncomfortable with negotiation, if I just either
don't want to be rejected, or I'm timid by nature
and just, I'm curious, but I'm just uncomfortable.
I really want to push myself to do this.
What's in it for me?
What are the most common benefits
that come from being good at negotiating at work?
- So that's a great question, Nick,
and I would say people generally are not excited
to give you things.
Your manager, their job is to keep you happy
and keep you employed at the lowest possible price.
So if you're not asking for a salary increase,
if you're not asking for expanded responsibilities
or a promotion, the magic fairy may visit you
and you may luck out and be just given that promotion,
but most of the time, people are not advancing
and not making more money because they're not asking.
And in fact, the studies show that this is true.
59% of people do not negotiate their salary.
And it does break down also by gender.
54% of men are not asking, and 68% of women are not asking.
But the good news is that those who ask
are also 54% more likely to get it.
So just the fact that you ask, you are more likely
to get it.
And I hope that that's really inspiring for people.
If you can figure out, and you can get a script
for how to ask on my website.
Get a script, write down what you're going to say,
practice saying it a hundred times,
and you're 54% more likely to get it.
I hope that's really inspiring for people
to take a risk, take a chance, and ask for what you want.
Now start off with something small.
It may not be even your salary.
Start off with something small.
Start asking for what you want when you go to a restaurant.
If you don't like your food, ask them to replace it.
Just little things that you can ask for.
And in fact, there's a great TED talk that I'd love
to share in the show notes called The Hundred Days
of Rejection, by a guy.
He wrote a book about it, and he did this TED talk
about how he pushed himself to ask for something
every single days for a hundred days in a row,
and how that desensitized him to the idea
of being rejected and getting a "no."
And he really pushed himself.
There were little things that he started with,
all the way up to the big things,
that getting used to that kind of rejection
will help desensitize you to it.
But you're also really significantly more likely
to get it when you do ask for it.
- No, that's great advice.
I had never heard that stat before,
but you're actually more than 50/50 likely
to get it just by asking, so what's the worst
that can happen, right?
They say "no," and you're in the exact situation
that you're in today.
- Exactly.
- Another thing I've heard is that one of our guests
actually makes his clients do this exercise,
and he says, "You need to go, whatever product or service
"you're selling, whatever it is you have to offer,"
and this is for entrepreneurs specifically,
"go and create some ridiculous price in your mind.
"Like I'm going to sell you job advertising
"for one year, and it's going to be a million dollars.
"And just go ask some perfect client, just so they
"can tell you no."
But it's similar to that same idea, that you get
the rejection out of the way, and you create this price
that's pie in the sky, and they say no,
and you realize that nothing happened.
Your life didn't end.
- You didn't die, right!
- I'm still here, and I asked, and oh my God,
maybe next time they'll say yes.
And you kind of go from there.
- Yeah, there's another exercise that Tim Ferriss
shares in a TED talk that he did where he learns
to look at his fears.
And he does this exercise where he writes down
what his fear is, and then he says, what's the absolute
worst thing that can happen?
And then he lists out all the worst things
that could possibly happen, and then actually goes
through and says, "Okay, if that happens, what will I do?
"And if this happens, what will I do?"
And that act of saying, "I got this.
"I've seen what I'm going to ask for
"and all the horrible things that could potentially happen
"and what I'm going to do if they do happen."
Imagine the amount of confidence you're going to get
because you know no matter what happens, you're good.
You've got some answer or some way to respond to that.
It just puts the power back in your ball court, essentially.
It puts the power back with you, where you do feel like
you're just going to be the victim of whatever happens
in life, but I actually have an answer for this,
and I have a way to respond to this.
- Yeah, it's one of those things, it almost makes
you wonder how we got to this point where we didn't
have any power in the first place.
And it was probably by not asking for enough things
and saying "okay" one too many kinds.
And suddenly you wake up and go, "Man, I'm not doing
"anything I want to be doing."
And I feel like for listeners out there that are
feeling that way, take Melissa's advice to heart,
download that script.
We're definitely going to put that in the show notes.
And moving into what I consider my favorite segment.
I love the Q&A.
I love hearing and learning from you.
But I love rapid fire.
So are you ready to play the rapid fire round, Melissa?
- I'm ready, Nick.
Let's go.
- Alright, here we go.
What do you think about when you're alone in your car?
- Oh, gosh, now I gotta be fast.
Okay, what do I think about when I'm alone in my car?
I actually listen to podcasts, so I don't think
unless I'm listening to something that's prompting
me to think.
I'm not a ponderer.
I don't go back over my life and think I should
have done this, or how would I respond to that.
I'm always listening to something, and so I'm thinking
about whatever's on, whatever audio is on in my car.
- What's your advice for your previous boss?
- Oh, curiosity.
How about asking some questions?
- What do you want to be when you grow up?
- I hope I never grow up. (laughs)
- I love that.
What inspires you?
- The entrepreneurs and men and women who are speaking up
for gender equality and more honest, authentic
conversations in the workplace.
- What is your biggest fear?
- Oh, God, I have this horrible fear of failure.
I have to push myself every single day to do things
that scare me.
- Who do you admire the most?
- Oh my God.
Who do I admire the most?
You know, I really want to say someone political,
but I'm afraid that I would just make half
of your listeners mad.
But I really do admire Hilary Clinton for what she did
in the last election.
So politics be damned.
I'm going to say it.
- Which celebrity annoys you the most?
- Chris Rock.
- And last one.
You get to share a drink or a meal with anyone
in history, dead or alive.
Who is it, and why?
- Michelle Obama.
Why?
Michelle Obama was such a role model to women and girls,
I think especially millennials in this country.
The way she was so poised and articulate,
and every single speech that I heard her make
was so inspiring.
She is definitely my choice.
- That is awesome.
Thank you so much for being a good sport
and playing rapid fire with me.
(Melissa laughs)
And then one last quick thing before we go,
just your number one parting piece of advice
for anyone that's feeling overwhelmed or unsure?
And then how do we follow you and get more engaged
with your content?
- Yeah, so it is totally normal and natural
to feel overwhelmed and unsure when you are negotiating.
It's something that is extremely counterintuitive
to us for all the reasons that we've talked about,
that fear of failure, taking things personally,
all of those things are just normal and natural.
But they have also become over time habits for us.
And so if you start by just thinking,
"My response in this situation is a habit,
"and it's a habit I can change," then you are
one step closer to actually making a change.
So instead of beating yourself up and saying,
"God, I'm not good at this.
"I don't negotiate well."
Say, "I don't negotiate well because I haven't
"formed the habits that I need to negotiate well."
And then break it down one step at a time.
Go to my website, which is MelissaHereford.com.
I'm sure you'll have this link in the show notes.
And download a script.
And then write out your first script and just practice it.
And you will slowly over time, by taking things
one thing at a time, start to change your habits
and become the person that you want to be.
- It's amazing.
I think scripts are an amazing download
and something that's super valuable.
And when you think about it, I don't have a script
per se, but there's a script or a bullet point list
or a format for this show, and for things that we do
seriously that need to be well-structured
and well thought out always have a list, or a bullet,
or a script, something like that.
So we'll definitely put that in the show notes.
And Melissa, it's always a pleasure to talk with you.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.
- Thanks, Nick, it was a pleasure.
- And there you have it, my friend.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Melissa Hereford.
Don't forget to grab her free script by heading over
to thejoblab.com/e3download.
On Episode Four, I'm going to chat
with a season career expert and executive coach
about the most common mistakes we all make
in our job search, and how to avoid them.
So if you or somebody you know is actually looking
for a new role, or you're thinking about embarking
on a job search yourself, you won't want to miss it.
As a reminder, please email me your questions
and your feedback.
What's that one question that you want answered?
Let me know what it is, and I might just build
an entire episode around helping you solve it
because let me let you in on a tiny little secret:
you aren't the only one feeling this way.
So your questions are going to help yourself,
we're going to solve them for you,
and together, we're going to create a great conversation
out there for other people that are going through
the same thing.
If you haven't yet, please subscribe to the show
and make sure you never miss an episode.
The guests coming up are absolutely freaking awesome,
and I'm just getting started.
I'm telling you, in the next couple of weeks
we're going to visit with bestselling authors,
world-renowned experts in their fields,
and even a two-time Superbowl champion.
So subscribe now if you haven't.
There's no reason to wait and risk missing
one of those episodes.
And if you like what you're hearing,
please give The Job Lab podcast a five-star rating
and leave a review for us on iTunes.
And just to reiterate what Melissa said,
practice, practice, practice.
You can leverage Melissa's free negotiation script
to help you, and you can find that link
in the show notes and online, along with transcriptions
and videos of the podcasts.
Everything's available on the website
at thejoblab.com.
Melissa absolutely crushed the tactical parts
of negotiation, but I want to remind you
that it all starts in our heads.
You have to, with every fiber of your being,
believe that you deserve it.
Whatever your ask is, you're not being greedy,
you're not being shallow, you're not being
annoying or petty or disruptive.
Remember that.
Convince yourself of that.
And learn the skills Melissa shared today.
Because combining those two things will all but
guarantee that you will get what you're looking for
in your negotiations.
Never settle.
Thanks for being here, and I'll be back with you
next week.
- You've been listening to The Job Lab, with your host,
Nick Murphy.
To make sure you never miss an episode,
subscribe on iTunes or Google Play today.
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