Welcome to create new futures
thought provoking conversations
with leaders experts and
interesting minds join us
as we explore ideas and reflect
on practices that you can use
and apply to create and shape
the future.
Your host author and strategy
consultancy Shahar.
Welcome to create new futures.
When we develop conversations
with and
interesting people to explore
ideas and practices
to help you create new futures
with your team and for your
business.
This is an event today
I'm speaking with Ann Marie
Arshiya the founder
and CEO of Archer
and Associates an executive
search leadership development
and coaching services firm
that delivers best in class
talented candidates for clients
and helps individuals and
organizations achieve
their potential.
After 20 years in corporate
America was she experienced
the unpredictable nature of the
hiring process and the
leadership gaps it creates.
Annmarie launched her company
to bring holistic solutions to
talents.
She combines in her work
deep insights tokenization
own dynamics and personal
optimization with
the use of intuition
to formulating penetrating
insights.
In this conversation you will
learn about the system approach
that Annmarie brings to wait
deifying leadership talents.
We explore the power of
conversation.
There's the tool that creates
the roadmap for transformation
and how we essentially teaze
to become insanely curious.
Marie talks about developing
the ability to be in a place
of not knowing and the courage
and fearlessness required
to uncover what is going to
slow the situation.
This is a rich conversation.
And I know you will want to
capture and retain some of the
ideas we discuss to bring
these to your work and
leadership journey
because of power outage in the
middle of our conversation
and we needed to shift
to a mobile phone in the middle
of the conversation.
And you will recognize this
point with a change of tone.
The recording he'll
then is my conversation
with Annmarie on chior.
So Mary welcome.
Great to have you on this
conversation today.
Great. Thank you evene that was
a lovely introduction.
I appreciate that.
How will you.
I am.
Excellent.
I am wonderful.
Thank you for asking.
I love your book.
The parts that I've been able
to get through it.
Well I just I just want to say
that to you that it's I
now truly get
why when you and I were
speaking on the phone
you're like we need to continue
this conversation.
I mean everything I'm reading
is just write down my belief
system.
It's just I mean it's as if I'm
I'm talking to you know to a
mirror a different version of
it you have different ways of
expressing it but it's
the same the same idea.
I call this I call this to Mona
Monalisa fix Wherever you stand
she looks because you that
isn't that beautiful That's
nice.
Yes. Well Michelangelo
in fact I was like oh
yes like that is that is
exactly what I do.
So I was like oh
it just loved it.
I love it. I can't wait to
finish it actually.
I mean honestly I'm not just
saying that just to be nice.
They really mean that I can't
wait to finish it.
Crazy. Well I appreciate it.
So in the interest of full
transparency we have met
through the introduction
of a mutual friends
called Laurin Sydney.
And Courtney is one
of the brightest people I know
in business and I think we
both had the same response
when they called says you need
to meet someone you for
the brief and you start the
conversation.
That's exactly right.
And he he does that with
great discernment.
So whenever he does say
that I do exactly what he says
and in this situation
he has definitely been right.
And so I think this exploration
today will be as as useful
for both of us as it will
be for anyone listening
because we have just recently
started to develop our
conversation.
That's right.
So it's all right.
I'd like to dive right in
right away and and then
just to cover with the flow
of this conversation once
take us that he rates
and the places
that I'd like to begin.
Is that in my book in my
recently published book
Creating futures I makes
the point that
a conversation is
a discovery tool to
me. I believe in your
work as well.
You use conversations
as a discovery tool preps a
discovery portal to.
Tell me about the place so tell
me about the place and the
significance of the station in
your work.
You know as a as a coach and as
a person who does search
work with executives that's
really our Avenue
and that's her way of
expressing and developing
energy back and forth between
the two and often what I have
found with people in
conversation is the energy
exchange happens right in
between the collaboration
the minds together
create something beautiful
something that neither one knew
before beginning so
conversation in my work.
When I go in to do search
there is what I call a mining
of the company looking
and seeing from a place of
you know my view is objective.
You know my view is very
different coming into the
system I'm not part of the
system until I step in the door
and start asking questions.
And I I don't know what I'm
finding.
And often it's using an
intuition data
as well and also experience
so using the past to inform the
future.
But looking for where that next
step is and where the gaps
are in that organization.
And the same occurs with
with individuals.
When I'm coaching executives
and working with them it's
looking for that place
that hidden place where
they may not be able to see
there it's hidden from their
view.
And so we go with look and
sometimes in the Congress that
we have no ideas getting very
comfortable with the not
knowing.
No idea where it's going to go
but the conversation is the
road map the conversation is
the is the exchange
and our way of getting
to that place of transformation
so are going to want to
reference for some of the
things you are talking about
and unpack the
idea of Mining's a system
and intuition and
being in a space of not dying.
But even before we do that
let me ask you when
did you discover
that you have
a deep interest in the power of
conversations and that you
perhaps have a gift and an
intuition to decipher
the sometimes unfeasible side
of conversations such that that
allows you to
mine the system that
that must have been some
earlier experiences when you
became present yourself
and aware Oh this is a
space this is a world
that I can travel
with with ease and with
with grace and
and create meaning to tell me
share with me some of the
early experiences where you
discovered that
I I started my career
in sales.
So it was a place where
I had intended to be a teacher
actually. And then I went into
sales which is again teaching
in my world.
So I have
a I have a teaching
way of being so who
I am is a teacher and a
listener so and also
a speaker and so that was
always a skill I had.
But it was through the practice
in sales of listening to
my customers and my clients
that I really got that when my
mouth was talking I wasn't
learning anything.
And what I was really deeply
interested in was living
understanding and living the
lives of the other people in
front of me. So
while I always wanted to be a
teacher and also wanted to be
a writer. So I have a degree in
English and I always wanted to
be a writer and how I lived
other lives was
through those characters.
And so when I was out with my
customers I couldn't do every
job in the world that what I
could do is I could live
vicariously through those
people and what they were
what they were doing.
And I was insanely curious just
absolutely incredibly
curious.
So I started asking questions
and questions and questions
and the more
I learned the more it
took me down other roads and
other forks in the road
pathways that seemed
natural to me.
And then there was a point and
I wish I could pinpoint exactly
the time where I found
that I had an innate ability
to into it and just know
the right question
and sometimes it didn't even
it didn't even make sense of
why I would ask a particular
question.
But I would.
And what I learned in the deep
listening with my customers
is that
there often was a place
in the conversation that wasn't
mentioned. There was a place
that always seemed like there
is a missing
in the conversation and I would
keep digging and mining and to
life around that
place and with
experience over time of
trusting my deep inner
voice that would say
and give me questions to ask
that often wouldn't be the
question that would be expected
in those communications
I would uncover something that
was actually that gap that was
the missing piece that
would really make the
difference in either that
excellent tire or
the piece that would make the
difference on the team.
And it was a combination of
intuition
and then also over time
and to learn to trust that.
And you learn that it work.
And if you trust that hundred
percent of the time it will not
let you down.
There is there is a way
to keep following that
journey and the work and the
route of the conversation
that will eventually get you to
a missing piece that
the client or the people in the
room can't see the coverage
from their view.
Right. So if
you get that.
Yeah absolutely.
So before the line got broken
you spoke about how you started
from sails and and that
it's almost as though you have
the both the the sails
side the teaching side
and the right side
and the speaker side too.
So these four roles
well for capabilities
of playing in you know
in an orchestra hour or
with some colonels or band
breathe you and the
the operative are
driving or in telling falls
that you spoke to was curiosity
and so
how do you understand and
appreciate curiosity.
Is this something that
is there as a preponderance
as an inclination as a talent.
Or is this a developed
discipline or is it both.
It's both.
It's absolutely both.
I have I have
made it my life to
follow and watch highly
curious people.
Curiosity is what
fuels innovation
what fuels exploration.
It's what fuels
any kind of new you
any kind of way of stepping
outside of the common
way of looking
and finding a new way to look
from a new place from a new
existence a completely
different spot.
And that's why that's what I
play in as what I call the not
knowing and then not knowing
is while it can be
uncomfortable.
It's a place of deep
curiosity.
And so I consider that
as a as it
it's a belief I have
how I framed it is a belief
but it is an inner aspersion
that I've always had.
Just knowing more knowing
more knowing more and looking
at it from various views.
So if you take for instance
some of the things I would do
in kind of interviewing when I
was interviewing for candidates
I would create questions about
I would want to see how
serious these candidates are.
And so what I would do is I
would put down my coffee cup
and I would ask them to
tell me what that's used for
and and they would you know
coffee and I'd say well yeah
commonly used for coffee but I
wonder what uncommonly
used to work. We got curious
about it and so
that just I think that over
time I've noticed
that innate ability that I have
has been in practice to the
point of now it is a discipline
and I have enough data now to
back it up.
So that's where the
intersection of experience
added with living into the
future of being
curious and not knowing
come together to create
an added value inside of a
business.
Right.
Right. And this is my
experience
to my experience corroborates
that curiosity
is is actually a muscle
that you can develop.
And we can become intensely
curious because
of this certain critical
or central inquiries that
we have that that's propelled
for a variety of reasons by
business or by other needs.
And we can also practice
the so that's more laser
focused curiosity.
And we can also practice
a broad range wide
spectrum. Curiosity is a very
different kind of twin
cities and muscles
of curiosity that we can
develop in practice.
And I think what you're
describing is in
todays workplace where
so much is changing
so fast you must
be a very good learner and
to be a very good learner you
must be curious about
how the world around you around
you is changing and also
about your ability and
your capacity to address and
meet these changing needs.
That's right. That's right.
And I think I would I would add
to that just to add on to that
is what I've noticed in these
fast changing time
is it
used to be years years and
years ago that it was a much
more linear world and now
it is what I call a very
organic. It's always been a
very organic world.
But I see it now in business
even more and we can see
methodologies that will that
will substantiate this
that things are being consumed
in such a vast way.
Ideas are being consumed in
such a fast way that
they get from ideation to
creation to
actually moving things
forward in a practical way.
There's a more organic
decisiveness that's required
around that curiosity does it
make sense.
Oh absolutely.
Absolutely I think.
I think what you're describing
is that we
focus mental focus
and focus with
curiosity.
It is one of the
currencies and one of the
energies we bring to the table
and how we deploy this resource
is something we must be
disciplined about
so that it provides
the yields we're looking
to to create now
where it becomes even more
exponentially interesting
and complex.
Is that a few minutes ago you
spoke about this
idea of being in the not
knowing and being comfortable
inside the ambiguity of not
knowing and you've also
spoken about the
innate or or
developed capacity
to speak the unspoken to to
name the the unaimed.
How would you spread the
relationship between these
two. The capacity to beat in
the discomfort of not knowing.
And in that place be able
to into its
experience give voice
to the unnamed the unspoken
and asking crooning asking the
questions that nobody
dares to ask.
Yeah you know
being in in
in the not knowing being in
the place of you know being
comfortable in the
uncomfortable is where
I see the distinction of
leadership today and that's
where because it happens
over and over again.
And being able to be in that
risky spot on a
regular basis.
Now the
relationship between
curiosity the really
wanting to know
and the things that aren't said
that hang in the air
that you can feel
that you go to you reach for
them and say here's what's not
being said you know.
And I don't always
know when it's going to be.
But being willing to stand on
the edge of that cliff
and being willing to risk that
question because I think from
that
bearings have a sense of
courage and a lack of fear.
So with fearlessness
that needs to be present inside
of that moment that there must
be a sense of
no matter what occurs in this
conversation or meeting or
experience that I
will say I will be
fine. I will be OK.
Meaning I myself.
So it isn't about me in that
moment it's really
about it's about uncovering
what's going to serve in that
conversation uncovering what's
going to serve that other
person.
And there is in
in some spiritual practices
it's what's called a hollow
bone right. Saying what there
is to be said and what I
don't think I'm saying what's
so great being a hollow
bone and to allow that to
occur.
So sometimes I will literally
feel and experience myself
standing on the
edge of a precipice and being
willing
to state what so
and it in with and how
that is able to occur again is
the discipline of doing it over
and over and over and over
again with success
and being able to mine the
times that were successful and
those times that weren't.
And seeing what worked and what
didn't work with people how to
phrase it how to make it so
that it's
able to be answered.
So on that tragic ending you
can't.
Right. Right.
And in a minute I'd like to to
ask you how you
two further on how you apply
and use this in the search
and the interviewing world.
But but I think the first thing
I hear you're describing there
is that there is a competence
that is a capacity
that's required to day
of leaders that there is
for the leader or to
be able to step
into their own
leading edge.
That is the place
that that represents
the edge of the envelope
envelope of what they know
and push beyond that
by being there by inquiring
by being curious
by allowing themselves
to be surrounded by people
that know what they say Prep's
don't know which
is free of that means
that you were being defensive.
And and I think when
describing you're describing is
there a kind of
leadership that's very
different from
the legacy archetype
of a leader that's supposed
to have all the answers and not
every.
But that's the kind of leaders
we expected perhaps
30 40 50 years ago but
not in today's environment.
No I think the key for
a leader now I would say
is knowing the right question.
That's the key.
Knowing the right question
knowing when to pull
the trigger on the right
question
knowing when to listen.
Knowing when to be decisive
knowing how to include
and empower
and being willing to be
vulnerable inside of that.
Now there's a
credible amount of strength to
do that. When someone when you
watch and I have had the
privilege of watching and
working with leaders who
is deaf and
what I have seen
is when they're
willing to step into that
vulnerability it
is a beautiful thing.
It allows others to surface
and practice their own
curiosity their own problem
solving and it isn't
needed if you're an exceptional
leader it isn't needed to show
that you know what needed
is to empower the team with the
right questions to let them
explore that on their own.
Because what they will explore
will be possibly different than
that leader would dictate.
Right.
Right. When you say knowings or
ice question which is which is
the by completely agree
with you. This is the refrain
of over leadership it used to
be about knowing the answer.
Now it is about knowing
one of the right questions
and also how to approach
these questions in
the right way perhaps.
Yes. When you say that
you mean both
in terms of what is the problem
in the marketplace
for example that we are trying
to see also.
So these types of questions
that will spark the
innovation of a process
or a product or an experience
but you also mean that in
the organisational sense of
being able to see every
evolving of a team and
an organization and frame
and name there is
a question that will
facilitate the next
conversation that will indeed
help that team
make the next step in terms of
their evolution.
I imagine you mean both
yes I do.
Yes I do.
Its the same its the
same process
its the same process and
sometimes the question is
incredibly simple.
Usually to be honest usually
the questions are very simple
theyre not complicated.
So give me an example of give
me an example of some of the
simple questions that you like
to ask in
in your various interviewing
processes.
I generally meant
you know when you said this
just a moment ago where you
said it's also how you ask the
question. So usually
it is the way the phrasing
of the question which will
start with and I wonder
or wonder
what it would be like if
and it might be if you know
if the team is struggling
over and make
something up the team is
struggling over whether
to hire and Noori or
an executive team and hire
maybe let's say a leader of
sales of VTES sales or
something like that and they're
looking at the organizational
structure. And we have the
entire executive team in the
room and there's something that
is being said that it's around
that there's something.
Let's just say the common
underpinning is there's
something wrong with sale.
I wonder what it would be like
if we looked at this from
the framework.
There's nothing wrong with
sound.
I wonder if we took that out of
our equation and we
just look at what's working
with sale what's
working in the marketplace
and flipped it on its head and
started there.
It's sometimes just looking
from a different view and
then all of a sudden it it will
explode.
What's actually missing
in the room. It'll explain what
that what will happen if that
is then what made it
in a particular person
or the person to fill that role
will become really apparent
what you're describing in my
work and in my language
is is a is a beautiful
example.
All of you are seeing
is as an agent
that releases
people in the team
to look at a problem
to look at a challenge when as
we ism's through a new mental
model.
You say what will it be like if
we consider that nothing
is broken here nothing
is wrong with sales rather.
And and you frame in a
different point of view a
different mental model
such that
you essentially customize for
people a new vantage
point and you place from which
they can look at the challenge
they will looking to solve.
But now for many for place
in in essence bringing
two to life the idea
of Einstein which is that we
can solve the
problems we are looking at
with the same mindset and with
the same mental models that
created these very problems
created that very problem.
That's exactly right.
So if everyone's focusing on
what's wrong or what's missing
it won't uncover itself.
Because you're you're looking
from that place where it was
created from.
And that's why from me I
I go in
those meetings from a place of
openness and nothing I call
at my place of nothing.
I go in completely open
now. I've already done the
research and understanding
what's going on I have the
data. The data is there but
that's in a different spot.
When you're asking these
questions you're just being
curious and wondering
if you can come and take that
you know it that you're looking
at that might have all of those
questions on and just turn it
one little degree
and have that get out of their
way that question that places
where they're always looking
from which is something's
wrong.
And I found it just frees
up the whole team to start
to start having a conversation
that generated from a new
place.
Yeah. So.
So how do you go
from there from that
place of not knowing.
Two.
What's the journey and what's
the process that you leads
to to find and to
create the right fit.
Well you you bring
the right kind of leadership
talent to a senior role.
What is the process that you
go through what goes into that.
Well there's a there's
there's a lot that goes into
it. There's a lot of the
understanding of the as
is right of the what had
been in the past.
So there is some understanding
of the past to inform the
future.
And then once you have some of
that and you get curious
around
the company and the people
and the team and the dynamics
and you've asked enough
questions about the current
state of what is
then the time is spent
toward you know.
And it really does sound
something like this if you
could have anything
as an outcome of this
situation.
What would be the outcome.
And we start there we start
way in the future
and the future in my view
the future holds
us out of the past and
pulls us toward
what truly is what I call the
dream the dream of what's
wanted in that organization
because it's a system.
So it's the same as every
person inside that system is a
system and they're all a system
together.
And so as that system
you add one droplet into it and
that will create change.
So if you create change
and dream up in the future
what would be the greatest
solution. What would that look
like. So we start there.
And then once every once in
that space
we look at the page there's
that piece over there.
What's been the experience up
until now.
Here's the future outcome
that we're looking toward.
And then we start getting
pretty practical.
We start first of all we start
very creatively around what
could be. So with that outcome.
And then after we look at that
really creatively like not
stopping any of those juices
flowing then we start looking
at OK we really do have this
outcome that we want that we
want to solve this with this
person let's say as a resource.
Let's start getting practical
about what that future looks
like to and let's
get down to it you know nuts
and bolts about that what
you look at.
In my world
and this is a word that.
Most people don't like but it's
it's called tolerances.
Right. Like what is the
tolerance of that system
toward certain things and there
in there are tolerances.
Two inside
of a culture that they'll
accept certain things.
So the person that comes in is
the resource to fill that once
we've discovered.
Now we're in the practical
realm and we discovered
this individual needs to have
these things.
These things must be present
in problem solving curiosity
and then we get down very
practical to the actual skills
that need that are needed.
Then once we get there
we look at inside of
this structure this culture
that we're creating in the
future. What is it's all her
answers that must be here
possibly it could be.
Not everyone could tolerate a
high
team that's really highly
cheery and always living in
that in that race.
And maybe we'd have to torch
for that tollar to
make a stand.
Yes he does let me rethread
through the first and then get
back to the second thing you
were describing.
The first thing you are
describing is so coherent
and so much
in alignment with my work
where we focus first
on the future states or
what I often call Horizon's
three and there are a number
of reasons why both
at the personal but certainly
the team organizational and
business
conversation we must begin with
a future state because
if we start with the current
States we immediately
bring to the table
all possibilities
and we we essentially
minimize all Lemaitre
or cocktail hour where
possibility an hour is that the
range of consideration
is in the range of
opportunities and we
we minimize the the
art of the possible because
we look so down
in the gravitational
pull of
the current state and
to refills
that flow and begin
with the future states
and allow as you
said the future
to the possibilities of future
potency of what
a different future can look
like and feel like and
how we can experience ourselves
differently in that future when
we begins there
and we let that gravitation
and gravitational pull lead the
conversation
than we sidestep
a lot of problems and a lot of
obstacles that
otherwise we'll simply crowd
our way before we even begin
with.
This is a conversation
about a
an innovation problem we're
trying to solve or whether
this is a conversation about
how we must evolve
is a seal team that
needs say an
organization often sells and
people we recognize
that to climb the next mountain
and achieve the next
horizon the next future.
We want to create.
We must operate in
in a whole new way
as a leadership team.
So that conversation must begin
in the future of states and
then we journey backwards from
the future to today
more in terms of the full what
they got.
So what are those upheavals
that will enable
an accelerated journey from
from the current state to the
future states are really
copying what you were
describing in the first part of
your answer very much.
In my own language which I
described in
create new futures because
that's the process that I
conducted my needs with
with teams.
Let me just pause here and then
we'll go back to the second
part of your answer.
See if if you have any more
that you want to add to this
and you had any net that
actually.
If so if it is
literally a gravitational pull
you can see you can you
can see
the rain kind of the string is
coming down like I can't
describe it some of like a
plant get up and you could just
get it just kind of relax a
little bit and people
are energized with that.
All of the future.
Also you could peel the baggage
just go.
I'm mixing my metaphors here.
But it is CMAG
and they relapsed into oh we're
going to.
In addition what we really
want. Yeah that's where we're
going.
And then backing it up to
getting to the practical.
And it worked.
Yes.
The second thing you
were describing about your
process is that
when you find
the when you looking to
to identify and bring to the
table the right kind of
resource it is indeed
a system
or I someone call this
and in architecture
type problem because
when I talk about architecture
thinking what I'm
describing is the idea
of multiple inputs
that are designed to
create multiple outcomes.
When you bring a new person
new talent into
a team this is
one such situation because a
person
showing up for a role
will bring their experience of
their talents and
skills and competencies.
And so what I found
very interesting was the way
you describe those
multilevel multi-system
evaluation process where
you look at the skills and the
competencies and you say can
this person meet
the challenges and the
opportunities of the sprawl.
But also
can they
stretch sufficiently
but not the on the tolerances
off of that system
the culture the DNA
the practices and
so on.
But how do you know these
things how do you try
to assess and and come
to certainty.
Is this is this a science.
Is this all.
Is this
something that ultimately
is is an intuitive judgment
call or or is it something
else altogether.
It's both. Again it's the same
thing it's.
It's the same process.
So when working with
individuals to determine if
they're a fit for an executive
team after you've
done the discovery and the work
with the executive team
and and often it's
not just the executive team of
the executive team it's the
level low under that at the
pier level it's you
know sometimes it's talking to
their customers as well.
And it's really getting
that once you have that work
then there's like a moment
where
the thread you've been
following is very clearly
the right thread.
And there's like one or two
pieces that will
that are required
inside that system that you're
looking for.
And so that's not going to show
up on a CD on a Resnik
going to show up those things
because they're they're hard to
articulate.
I mean they're there.
I mean you can articulate them
I know what they are when I'm
looking.
And so do the people who work
with me. But it's inside
that conversation of the person
the resource you're looking to
fill in that system.
It's the same process.
So you start the process again
with the discovery with the
human being
and you start looking you know
you knock off all of the skills
that are obviously present that
need to be present but then
you're looking for a way of
being then you're looking for
those tolerances and
you do the same thing you you
dig and mine and ask the
questions.
But then what you're looking
for is data to substantiate
of question. Those those
responses.
So
which I think is pretty typical
to look for what you're looking
for inside of examples
and real life experiences.
Have they shown bravery
let's say have they shown
courage have they.
Where have they shown
innovation.
What was their part in
that project. That was the
innovation.
How did they come up with that
idea. How did they think
there are certain roles inside
of a system that require
usually a certain way of being.
And so and with experience
this is where data and
experience all come in with
experience.
There's generally a certain way
of being that's needed inside
of a search role.
Can you give me can you can
you describe it give us a for
instance for what you mean
when you say in Wales being
inside that particular role.
Yes I can actually.
I'll give you one that that's
really present for me right now
because it's one we're working
on for a manufacturing
company and
they have a
need for a global
director of quality assurance.
So it's an operational role.
Lobal and for
in either quality
Well my experience of working
with people inside of quality
and software and technology and
manufacturing all doesn't
really matter.
They're different nuances
inside the different verticals.
But generally
someone who is that at
that level of quality
has an ability to be
has a way of being that they're
looking at the world a certain
way.
Otherwise why would they end up
in already.
So one of my questions
as I will ask them to walk me
through their life and where do
they start to question
quality. Where did where did
the passion around quality come
from.
And usually it's a way of being
that I've discovered is
that they are highly detailed.
They they believe that
there are ways
that things are to be done
and that there is a process.
In order to ensure quality and
but they're also looking for
a way of being perfection.
So they have a set there is
there is they're always
searching for perfection.
And the conundrum which is that
light in the dark of it is
that they're searching for
perfection
that something's always wrong.
Because you never reach
perfection.
So quality people are are
quite often never satisfied.
And you want them to not be
satisfied because they're all
with you
re inventing and looking
at core group problems
and making it better and better
and better so they're all in
the search for that.
So often when you work with
them their way of being
is that they
then often sometimes they'll be
working with them and
interviewing them and they
won't know that
at work and they get it.
In this example in
this example it makes total
sense. In this example you
just offered a
listening to you I sketched
on my pad here
a simple triangle or a cone
and at the top of
the cone is the
the the job requirements.
That is all Tumut leaves a need
that you are looking
to fulfill.
And so some somewhere
below it in the middle of that
cone I wrote
skills and competencies
and capabilities but
deeper and more of the
foundation
what I wrote as I listened to
your description is
a way of being aptitudes
and interior experience.
So you're trained you're
looking to make sure
that you find a resource
when you're finding a person
where those
labels are congruent there is
the risk Shearin story
there is something about the
interior
experience and the rupture in
how they see the world.
But what I sometimes call it
that for topography or of
meaning and values and what's
important for them
and how they experience life
because ultimately that is what
they bring to
their role as a leader
or as an expert
as a person looking to
perform a certain
required job.
And you're looking to create
that sense of the.
Now Anderson now I understand
why you used the earlier of the
term mining you're mining
both in
the system that the company
but you were also mining with
a person and all
these need to lead to
a point of coherence
where it makes sense.
That's right.
That's right. And
and often
there are
gaps possibly the
gap the competency gap there.
You can you can train and fill
and mentor and and coach
but the way of being
the actual We you call the
topography where they have the
topography meaning and value.
What I call what in the world
may be called their purpose
right there a drive
toward They see the world
a certain way now
they can come out of that and
see it another way but they are
normal more like they're kind
of their lane.
They live in is this certain
way of seeing the world.
And if you can uncover that
that uncovers often
their purpose and what they
could best be used for and
where they feel their greatest
satisfaction often.
And it really that strange
using that place where it all
coalesce internally
and then externally it has an
expression.
And so I've learned that inside
of the roles that I've worked
with and with organizations
there are certain ways of being
that serve really well inside
a certain role.
And then you can fill in the
competencies that and that when
I can get an executive team
to see that then that
then the world opens up now
sorting for that and assessing
that is you know is an art
form is you brought up in that
it's a combination of
data and science and
and an art
it's all.
Do you believe that's the way
of being.
Is is something that's
coachable or you approach this
which is that the premise
is that there you must
find the
the tendencies the nation's
the attitudes that
would resonate
and synchronize with what's
being called for
to evolve and change the way of
being.
Yeah. Well I I do
believe my belief system.
Humans are given everything
they need when they get here.
I love your
I love your part in your book
where you talked about you've
already had the courage to be
poor.
You've already had the courage
to you know to to be in
existence here and.
And you know I know
I will be using my practice
with people.
But what I I I
believe human beings are can do
absolutely anything that's put
in front of them.
Given the right training the
right aptitude there are
some aptitudes that you
do have to have can you
cultivate those.
Yes.
My my belief
is that when when
something that is subconscious
is conscious it gives you an
opportunity then to
work with it and transform it
if you desire to.
So what I
work with often with candidates
because when I do coaching
which is distinct from search
when I do coaching with people
often you know for example
of the Michelangelo and the
kind of the chipping away to
find that inner being.
I believe that people can
transform anything
and that it can happen
in an instant or it can happen
over a period of a longer
period of time but that
the that it's that it's the
journey that you're on
transformation is a quick
moment in time. But then
there's always a new one right
after you and
you can be in a constant state
of transformation.
And that's what I that's what I
believe people are in and when
they're willing to look and
willing to be vulnerable to
open to that
that's where the possibility
comes in the future.
So when I look for with
candidates who are looking
for role is
what is their
ability and openness
for that transformation to
continue to occur.
You know they have a thirst for
that.
And so in my coaching clients
that's also what we call Coach
ability right.
Are they willing to look
in if they're willing to look
at like you pull something back
behind their head and move it
up their side of the aisle and
then it gets in their front
view and then they're able to
actually grapple with it look
at it. Be willing to have
courage around it.
And possibly transform that if
they want to move in at a
future state after they are
useful.
Just like
you said earlier that the
reason moment in the search
process when the thread
appeals and Prep's connects
put a magnifying glass for me
on this please so
is there a moment where you
feel that
this is right this is the right
fit and
there is a clear and distinct
almost somatic experience
that verifies
for you that this is the case.
Is this the way it is
or or is it more
the case that you
have developed early around
hospices or an intuition
about who the right candidate
is is and you're not leading
through the process and then
you get to a point a moment
in time where
your earlier intuition
is validated.
Or the other way around and
what you discover now you need
to really approach it
differently. Just put a
magnifying glass for me on
that experience.
You know it happens both ways.
So I'm thinking in particular
as we're talking about and I
keep thinking of one particular
search I was doing for an
executive team and
the CEO had invited me
in to meet with the executive
team and to do that discovery
that then I requested the layer
below.
And I didn't know why
necessarily I request the layer
below in that particular
situation.
But I did. And it was that was
an intuition my
gut had told me there was
something there that
wasn't being spoken
and it was
it was just wrong.
Every time I met with the CEO
and met with the executive team
so I made that
request and I'll never
forget.
There were two of us sitting
around the table from from my
firm and we were doing that
discovery and I kept digging
and digging and
there was just we had all the
questions answered that you
think we needed to have
answered and there was just
a sense of the
heaviness in the room.
And I and I looked
and I just I just went in and I
said there is something in this
room that is palatable
that I cannot describe to you
what is not being said at this
moment.
And willing to step up and say
and I looked at the CEO and I
said Is this a safe arena for
everyone to speak.
And then and then it was
another hour
of what really was
happening.
So there was a lot of
stories going on that was not
actually true but having
the executives in the room they
were that there
were repercussions.
I'm not sure if I quite
answered that question but
it is being willing
to go in
and knowing that there's
nothing there to fear take to
get out when it needs to come
out.
Right. And so you
also to other questions.
It does
because you first answer
the one question you answered
but I didn't ask was clearly
in the intuitive
process of inquiry.
You are following
the energetic pattern
that you are experiencing with
the team and
you have you have to follow
that process at it and it's
it fresh sounds and can
be experienced somewhat
shoemaking in nature in
the way you go about.
That's And
it also clear in this
particular example
that you were
called I Believe
and parades to
bring the right resource to the
team. That was the project that
was the term of the
engagement's correct.
Yep.
But in essence you were
performing another service.
I don't know if you are paying
for these theories
but you are you are acting
as a as a company here
or as a facilitator for
the transformative process.
And I don't know if you build
that into your field structure
when you engage for the project
but you clearly perform better
service on that occasion.
Yeah. Thank you.
Yes.
You know I've been asked about
that numerous times.
I don't know any other way
to do it.
And I'm being very very
transparent with that.
For me there is a way
and this is the way
that we have over
the years I've been in that
business now 17 years.
This is how we have had success
and and I can bring people
in and train them and model
them and how to do it.
That is the tracking of the
energy it is that
deep listening and listening
for words that sometimes seem
out of context.
It's for listening for story
and watching the interactions
of the people and then it's
tracking all of that.
And eventually they'll be
just a little red that will
come out and you just tack
on it just enough
and then you play sometimes
three or four threads until you
find the right one.
And that's the one.
And then it can be 10 minutes
afterwards and you've got
everything you need.
Like there's just there's just
a moment to
and the team will show it to
you.
Right.
It said what I have discovered
about conversation is once it's
said it cannot be unsaid.
So we tell them that
brings it to a whole new
level of experience for the
team.
Now it's said Well now what
what's next.
Now they're living into a whole
new future called.
That elephant has just been
let out.
Now what Mike there is out
there that causes
transformational change right
there.
So let me try
that.
Let me try and translate
what we are talking about.
What you're describing is
is the realization
in the inside that
whenever you have a group of
people and whenever you have a
team that's been working
together for a while
perhaps for a long time
through their behaviors
and through their interactions
and through dialogues they
are in actuality they create
a Metro meaning
that codifies
and expresses
very energetic
patterns of their interaction
because their action
our actions and behaviors
and the words we say as human
beings all those
are expressions
of the various energies we are
propelled by motivations
our desires our hopes
our aspirations
and how we express
in connection and in
in communication our
beliefs.
And what you're describing is
therefore what you have a group
of people or a team that's been
working for a while.
They tend to create
a morphological field an
energetic field that
defines the
do's and don'ts.
The missions are what's
accepted and what's not and if
for example you have a team
that because that leads to our
demonstrated time and again
is certain reactivity
that's creates
a fear based
vector or in the equation and
people hold back from bringing
to the table sometimes the best
ideas and there are transparent
communication.
And so what you're describing
is that as somebody coming from
outside into that system you
have the facility you have the
capacity through
the media of conversation
to free up to remake the system
and to up that level
of transparency and
and authenticity
ends by
transform and heal the system.
And that that
we sometimes call less soft
stuff is the hard stuff.
But when we are able to do
these and enable that for teams
that are working hard to
achieve certain
outcomes business outcomes
financial outcomes
the profound acceleration of
results is extraordinary
what can actually happen
sometime in a one hour
or so or in a couple of days
which are in terms of failure
in terms of the outcomes
achieved in their agreements
and decision their alignment.
Perhaps these three months work
in two or three days or
sometimes two or three hours.
That is the only way that can
be generated.
That's right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
They better learn how to deal
with conflict with one another.
They don't shy away from
conflict.
They learn to create a bit of
trust and vulnerability
and that you know these are all
big generalities.
But but this is what I mean to
be so in it can actually
happen it can happen in a in
a transformational way through
coaching and through the
facilitation that you talked
about.
And it can also happen when
they have a need to
change the system such as
adding a resource.
That's why the same
conversation
you see absolutely
same conversation and that's
and that's why the two services
inside my business exist
because they they work
with and in tandem with one
another to create the same
result.
So do you often engage
in the coaching process
with the same team with the
same people you have helped
create the right fit
Yes we do and
how we've actually done that
in order to make it even easier
is with each search
the candidate when they enter
into the new system and they
take their new job.
They get coaching with that
that's part of search.
So so that the
client company would hire us to
do a search and what comes with
that. And you know you can
say it's free for me it's just
part of him in
getting a coaching conversation
or a transformational
conversation inside that
environment.
So it eases the trance
the the new
into the system world class
and will provide you a bit
of your bill that you're
bringing accountability to
your own process.
That's correct. That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah the first 90 days
of a new human
being in a system is often
you know the most harrowing
part.
And there are some
practicalities that you
know I have learned through my
life that actually work very
very well for that
movement.
And to be able to embed inside
that system and some things
around accountability and
around planning and around
keeping agreements during that
first 90 days were really
predict success actually.
It really does predict success.
And so that's why we do it.
And then by the time that
candidate is in that system
you know I know them so well
before they even go in
that the ability to be able to
then switch and coach and
guide and align
with that system since I know
the system is almost like
a
you know a matchmaker in a way
right like creating the
environment and helping that
environment bring in their
new piece.
So it makes sense to me to do
it.
The absolutely fascinating
process and what
what's beautiful is is
the accountability.
You don't just leave them to
discover for themselves how
successful they will be or not
but rather than you you enable
that process for them.
It's it's rewarding for
me as well to see the result.
So to be honest
for me that's part of the
reward of the work
is to be able to help
make that that
which over and like beautifully
easily helps the person
have someone do what I call
stand for them while they're
doing it.
So they have someone in their
court so they as they ease
in it become part of that story
that that team has created.
Until you know their character
is in that story.
Right.
Right. That part of my
reward
if you will payment right
here is why do the
why.
And you can guarantee a much
more satisfied happier
company and person when you get
into it.
But just a couple of more
questions to follow from
that.
Before we bring this
now reach expiration to
lending.
When you look at your skills
and what how you use your
skills and what you bring
to the work you do.
How much of it is is
transferable. Have you been
able to transfer
the work you do.
Or is it no
more of a name
an art form
with a recipe that you almost
find extremely difficult to
reverse engineer and
transferred to another person.
You know I I've thought for
a long time that it wasn't
transferable.
OK.
And and I have changed
my mind on that.
Oh wonderful.
I knew it because
there are so many great people
I've learned from.
And this is a compilation of
you know me standing on their
shoulders for the end and
continuing their work and
putting together all of it to
create method that I think
that I can see work.
So
I do them a great disservice
since I'm a learner from them
if I don't carry this on and
and pass that on to someone
else. So I thought
that it was this magical piece
that you know I had made
in if not entirely.
So through modeling
and through
interaction and experience
there is a method that I follow
and I and I can
I can tell you exactly what it
is. Now the actual particulars
of the questions are always the
same but when training
someone I can bring them in and
I can teach
them why I went where I went
what it was that I saw
felt no
witness there that had me go
down that certain
path.
And in that de-briefing of
taking someone with you it does
require modeling that
there is a method.
There is absolutely a method
it's starting with the future
state it being
clear about what the current
state is and glancing back to
the past state.
So you do have data that
then it's being willing to be
in the not knowing. I mean I
know the process and I wish the
right person who's
willing to explore
it. I can teach them.
That's great.
That's a great answer.
My guess is
if it's about moles on the
training forces they have to be
the heft to get the benefit
of any immersive
transfer immersive experience
of being on point either
being one point and probably
even having
you on video and those
discovery conversations were
some steals from the rich
something as happens when
they are together with you when
I do in my
leadership and strategy
events and workshops they often
incorporate
a module around coaching
because I just think that every
leader must be a competent
coach because such a big part
of leading
is building the talent off the
successive generations.
And most managers
and leaders are good fix
rules that are not very
good coaches and can
in essence the actually
that reflexes are different.
So I incorporate
in like just a couple of weeks
ago I was with SEAL team and we
incorporated on the second
morning of that workshop
and an hour and a half module
around coaching and I
said to them I want you all
to practice coaching each other
because if we're going to be
able to create a high
velocity learning culture
that you all need
if you want to succeed in
achieving the audacious and
ambitious goals you have just
to a flashlight
and and on and aligned
on in terms of with the
organization is going next.
It's not going to be sufficient
to just declare these goals.
We are all of your will to you
asleep.
And assisting to get there in a
fastest way to get there.
This too creates a
high velocity
learning culture
and the way to do that
is to build the disciplines
of coaching and debrief
and the best way to do that
is to practice coaching each
other and not be
defensive in the
face of these
explosions with each other.
And so we practice that and
end up.
People often say Well that was
the most powerful hour and a
half even though he was
it was not the main
focus or the thrust
of what we was for.
That's what I called
foregrounds
alternating the fog run in the
background the fog ran.
We was there to articulate
and define the future
state of the organization the
horizon straight future
and the key strategies that
will get us there.
But if these two bring me to
life we also have to
address the big Ron which is
who are we as leaders
as a leadership team and how we
show up in a whole different
way to create this new
future.
And and it's very much
the way you describe me.
Why I just
agree with you in say one
of the things that we have
created is when you train
new managers line managers
who possibly only managed a
short period of time.
One thing that we do is add an
element. So the training will
go on for six months but it's
once a month and we add
one element and then during
the period of time.
So half a day then for the
rest of the month they
have they peer coaching
each other on that element
within their team.
So if they're working on
communication then each of
those managers
would work
here coaching each of the other
managers during the month while
we're not there.
And then the next month there's
a new element to be learned.
And then they pick coach each
other during the month on that
element.
So we incorporate training and
coaching in our management
leadership program for just
that reason. Because if they
practice it in over a six month
period of time peer coaching
each other and then having
examples of coaches
to be available.
It's
brilliant I mean raises the
level of the culture
unbelievably masquerades
as a great time
it is complete agreement
alignment with that one.
What advice what
advice do you give to a
talented and bright person
early in the career
when they'll see more.
Sure and still searching to
find the initial discover
how they can access it.
How do you advise a
situation like that when
they're still when they're
still looking for where they'd
like to contribute.
They're not sure yet well
maybe they'll know in the first
or second rule.
In a lot of company
the you know preps or even
in sales roles that are in a
different function.
And and they if they're
doing well you know people
say you're bright You're very
talented.
But somewhere inside there is
this nagging feeling of that
there is something else I need
to find and I'm not quite sure
what it is or how to go about
finding what I should do next
and and how
to has more of
a plan or more of a system
approach or rational
approach to my career.
How do you advise a question
like that.
Yes. First first off I advise
them to find a good coach
they can bake it at and if they
can manage that.
The next day I advise them to
keep reading and to
read everything they can get
their hands on from all sorts
of different areas of walks of
life philosophy to
do you know anything they can
get their hands on of people
who have done it before them to
look at the leaders who've
discovered before them
and great thought leaders
philosophers
then I advise them to find
some way to get in touch
with their
inner self. So for some that
could be meditation some it's
prayer some it's
being outside whatever it is
to find a spaciousness
within themselves
so that whatever it is that
is to show up for that
there needs to be a listening
to that inner voice and that if
they create in this
practical sense a basis
for that to show up that will
show up things don't show up
unless there's room for them.
So you have to create room
and the SO and
you know that can you can look
at that from a spiritual
standpoint or you could just
flat out look at it from a
practical standpoint if you
have a bookshelf and it's
crammed full of books you're
not going putting more books on
the bookshelf. So you know how
do you create spaces for the
new to show up for you is to
be willing to let go of the
old and allow to do it.
And so someone can understand
that from any walk of life
and I'll say that to someone
new in their career and say
here's the piece to really
watch for
notice and be introspective
with yourself and notice
where you live
and where you don't live
where time stands still where
time is dry.
Notice inside your job that
you've had.
Are there patterns that you see
are there things that you
always do that you gravitate
toward. What do you resist.
What do you not resist like
start to being introspective
with yourself journal that you
can and to keep track
of these things that you see
what managers do at work better
read what kinds of missions
do I feel better more satisfied
being attached to all kinds of
cultures.
And then I have them just start
to really look
and from that and give
yourself space
for your inner being
will it to you in a way that
will give you what
you need. So there's like this
practical walk walk
and then the inner walk and the
two of them don't go alone
they're always together.
But allowing that practical
piece to let the inner peace
speak so that you can actually
hear what's next.
And it may not be with everyone
else in the world and for you
to do but it may be something
that just you
just know that might be the
next step and how you
will know that is that you have
been in time for which yourself
and listen to that
deep voice that you
have to give its faith to show
up. And anyone can say all it
is to sometimes change
the language depending on who
I'm talking with but that
generally speaks to them
to give themselves the space
to be able to create what not
to let it show up.
Right. Beautiful.
And so so we're we are so
coming back to where we started
with the idea of actually all
cities has to be very curious
to be very curious and
observant of the world around
you and and also
of the world inside you the
your interior world and where
and what situations
around what are
the subject metals
and what kind of modalities
and ways of for theorizing.
Where do these that line
in a way that energize
you because when you get on
the mountains and energize what
you call what you leave in to
a space
always is a
is an indication and perhaps
the revelation that means
that you are drawing closer to
what you are here pressmen to
do or drawing
closer to that sense
of purpose in a practical
sense and
in the deeper most
meaningful and perhaps
spiritual sense and
how and where you find
the answers to
what you need to do in terms
of your profession or your
work. You're wrong.
It's just an expression of love
of a big gestalt of who
you are as a human being
and what you are here
perhaps for and
what you are here to perhaps.
So all these
as you said reveal
unto each other it's curious
some people are more inside out
learning is the first and use
insights it feels
on the inside and then that
leads them to a course of
action.
But there are many people
perhaps six or seven out of 10
where they
are more in the outside the
morning and I've learned to
appreciate different people
come to discover
and and find that
insight in a whole
different way now very
personalized because we're
each wired differently
to discover into learning.
That's true.
I call those the doers
that they acted that they
almost kinesthetically they
have to they have to do it
their body experiences
it whatever it is.
And from that very physical
feeling. Then there's the
transformation of the infight
other transport bit.
And I um I would say there's
probably a lot more of those
than the inner the inner then
move in a different way.
But you know in my world and my
belief system there's no
boundaries between the outer
and the inner.
They're they're they're all one
environment.
Right. And at that after.
Right. Like letting those
landscapes show up for each
other.
And so one
informs the other so the anchor
here in the physical world
you know is just that an anchor
for what's happening inside
and the internal environment.
And so you know
when you can work with someone
you know I often in my in my
work I get people who have been
in in their work for 25 years
or so usually highly
experienced and very successful
already.
And then there comes a point of
the new There's like
a lack of satisfaction
and there's something
that the looking glancing into
the past to look at the
patterns of what they've
already Ariens really
does inform the future
letting go of pieces that don't
work and embracing the ones
they want to carry into that
new future and then create
a what's next inside
that new future from nothing.
It's still taking up pieces
with that work that they know
will work for them.
These are all those that Ariens
and that's the read of that
life and that journey.
Right.
Yes.
There are so many threads here
that perhaps we can develop one
on another conversation
including
the other and son and
the unpacking of the the idea
that there are different
learning styles and how
some are what you call
kinesthetic learners
and others are
conversationalists learners
and.
And then there are other ways
of learning as well and we have
to recognize
and accommodate to to all
of them. But we we do need to
bring this one to landing.
And this was
a a rich and fascinating
exploration.
So I wonder if there is any
any parting with still more any
call to action that
that you would offer
Harding wisdom and call to
action if
if I had a wish
where the people listening to
this podcast and listening to
this it would be that we listen
more deeply and more fully
to each other but also to
that internal voice that is
so just
so ancient and that
internal voice that will guide
us if we let it
and get more and more familiar
with listening for it
and when it speaks because it
starts in a whisper.
And then if we
if we don't start to listen
it eventually
it's very very quiet.
But if listened to it
and feed it and listen some
more. Which means giving it
space speak
it will start to speak with a
much louder timbre in its
voice and you'll hear
it it'll sound a little bit
while sometimes
and not disciplined
sometimes but that's the voice
of creativity
innovation.
That's the voice of leadership.
I think that it's with
deep listening.
That it can come forth.
And that's listening to each
other in conversation.
It's being clear about when to
speak when not to speak
when let silence be there
and be present.
And if leaders learn that
fine line the thing with
others listening with
themselves.
I think that
that will solve a lot
of what people are looking for
deep listening.
That's awesome.
That's beautiful.
Cottingley Stillman and call to
action.
What can people find you.
Where can people find you and
learn more about your service
and your work.
They can find me at our Web
site which is w w
w that Archer
Dasch associates
dot com.
And we have a brand new Web
site coming out in
the next two to three Riebeek
that will hopefully be
full of great content and
entertaining as well.
That also will get more of an
understanding of our service.
So Archer dash associates
dot com and thank you for
asking that.
This has been just a really
enriching conversation
so enjoyable.
I think that's great and we'll
have the links
to to you and to
your website and on
the.
Summary notes of the sports
caster episodes.
Thank you so much for being
with me today on this
exploration.
Thank you. It's really great
fun. And you've
been at it my whole being back
here
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