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Lakeland Currents your public affairs
program for north central Minnesota. Produced by
Lakeland PBS with host, Ray Gildow.
Production funding for Lakeland Currents is made possible by Bemidji
Regional Airport. Serving the region with daily flights to Minneapolis
St. Paul International Airport. More information available at
bemidjiairport.org. Closed captioning for Lakeland
Currents is sponsored by Nisswa Tax Service. Tax
preparation for businesses and individuals. Online
at nisswatax.com. Ray: Hello again
everyone and welcome to Lakeland Currents. Where this evening
we have the unique opportunity to visit with a person
who works around the world. It'll be interesting
to see how many countries she's actually visited
and worked in. But it's a company called Catalyst. This is
non-profit organization that helps organizations
provide better work places for women.
And it's a very timely topic I think
because it's something that we're talking about across the United
States. In fact, Catalyst got its original beginning
it is an American company with a European
arm so to speak. So my guest this evening is
Allyson Zimmermann who is the executive
director of the Europe model of
Catalyst. Or model is probably not the right word but of the organization.
Welcome to Minnesota. I know you are a
native Minnesotan. Allyson: Yes, I am. [laughing] Ray: And so we can let people know
that. But, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy
schedule to come in to....the area
and do this show. And then you're not here long and you're back on the plane [Yeah]
and heading back to your home which is Zurich,
Switzerland. [Exactly] And what is the temperature running
this time of the year in Zurich? [laughing] Allyson: It's not as cold as
it is definitely here. [laughing] It's much warmer.
It's probably 20 degrees warmer.
I think, yeah. [Wow, wow] But thank you for having me. Ray: Well, tell
us a little bit about first of all, what Catalyst is.
And as I mentioned in the opening, it's been around since
1962 so it's been here a long time. But I know you
work with really large corporations.
[Exactly] I think I read on your website companies totaling
over a trillion and a half dollars in
revenue. Which is an incredible amount of money.
Allyson: Absolutely. It's...so Catalyst is a
research and advisory organization. And our
focus is largely on gender equality.
But we've been around since
1962. It was a woman in the U.S. who opened
it. And she really wanted to
bring to the country....
the needs of having more women in the
workforce. And....and so
we're largely known for the research.
Around what are the myths about women
in the workplace. Why aren't women advancing?
But we're also focused on the solutions.
It's not enough to know that there's a
challenge, we all know that. But how do you shift
and create impact? Especially in a corporation.
But also in a government. And so we
are.... Ray: And you do work with governments, too, right? Allyson: We do, we do. We've been
asked by various governments
they ask us to come in as a thought leader.
Because of the sound research we do.
But they also want advice.
So we have isolated
incidences. I remember, I oversee our European
arm and we were brought into
France for a discussion.
So we're often tapped into for the
knowledge. But more importantly as
well even with the European Commission
we've given advice on what to do.
Going forward for their next five
years. And so, this is something
that while...I would say
our wheel house is largely corporations.
It trickles into other arenas
as well. Ray: I know just as a side this is not the most
seen TV show you've been on
because you said you were on BBC [laughing] [yeah] with
how many viewers worldwide on that? Allyson: There was
300 million. Ray: 300 million viewers. That's a little bit bigger
than we are. Allyson: Well who knows? Who knows? Ray: Yeah, who knows. Allyson: Let's send
this out. [laughing] Ray: So to make a distinction you don't focus so much
you don't focus on harassment
issues as much as barriers to
providing opportunities for women to grow. [yeah]
Roughly how many countries do you think you personally
worked in? Allyson: How I ...well
so Europe, you know it's not the United States of
Europe. So we have you know ranging 24
to 27 countries.
I personally have worked with
Catalysts across Europe. From
Slovenia to Sweden. So that means
it doesn't mean that the bulk that
I'm always in every country.
But I've lived in 4 countries across Europe,
Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Scotland.
And I but I also now live in
Switzerland again and yeah. Ray: So...
Allyson: So we cover a lot. Ray: We're dealing with really significant
different cultures. [yeah] Not only the governmental
culture structure [mmhmm] but companies. You said
a lot of the big companies you work with are family owned
businesses. Allyson: Oh actually no that was Slovenia
when we were talking previously. Ray: Oh okay in that country, okay. Allyson: And some of the
countries like in eastern Europe are more family owned. The
corporations that we work with are large, large
multi-national corporations. So if you think of the big
names like Proctor & Gamble.
In Europe, UVS, Barclays. You think of these
big companies. Those are the ones we work primarily
with. The large cap.
But the impact, the reason why we
do is because they're all struggling.
While the country's definitely add in
a context that is different. What's
fascinating is they're all
struggling with the same issues. It's
globally. And we're a global nonprofit.
And so whether we're in Japan
all the way to the US there's vast differences
in those countries obviously, India
and Canada. But
the reality is those issues
can really come down to
key themes that we see.
Particularly around advancing women.
And so when I look at
I'll give an example, unconscious
bias. One of the reasons, one of the barriers
of why women aren't advancing is they're
always running against this unconscious bias.
The biggest bias is think
leader, think male. And that is
universal. We see that. All you have to do is look at the
numbers globally. In the United States alone
95% of the Fortune 500
companies CEO's are men. [Wow]
And how long have we been doing this work? Looking
at gender equality. So there's this perception
that because we're talking about it or
because it's been there for a long time or because
you go into a work place and you see women everywhere
that you think, well it's not so bad.
And we our point of view is yes
advances have happened since the 1960's
absolutely. And we want to celebrate that.
But the fact that of the top
corporations you have a leadership of the
CEO, you only have 5% women in
one of the most advanced countries in the world? That
...should be shocking to many people. Ray: You know I think
one of the perceptions that people have when I've worked in the
world of the corporations is it when women
do get to the top they're ruthless.
Allyson: I hear that a lot. Ray: You don't ever hear that much about when men get to the
top. But I mean there's that perception that if a [yeah]
women has had the skills to get to the top.
And there are some large corporations now with women
in leadership roles. That's
gotta be a real barrier too doesn't it?
Absolutely because okay what you have at the top is
what you'll continue to get. So if you have a
dominant style that is ruthless
and you have a dominant style that's being rewarded
and being expected that's what you're going to
continue to get. So you have to change the top
to change what you're demanding the talent looks like.
And it goes back, you know when I said think leader
think male. It could be think leader, think assertive or
ruthless or this. Something
very maybe dominant
behavior. The problem with that
is when you look at gender.
Even if women, let me say
it differently. Assertiveness
let's say that's valued. Assertiveness,
can be admired in men but hated in women.
And we see that. All you have to do is turn on the news.
Turn on any show. You will see that. That double
standard. So what we did is we did research
called "double buying, damned if you do,
damned if you don't." And what we found and it's still relevant
today is that when women
behave in ways that are stereotypically
considered feminine, they're often seen as being
too soft to be a leader. If they
behave in ways that are not stereotypically
feminine that might be rougher or tougher
they are actually are seen as being too masculine,
too tough or ruthless. And this
...double bind is kind of like you can't be
too..soft or too tough. You have
to kind of find this middle ground
in order to be respected. So
the way I often describe it is women
often have to walk a tight rope in how they're
being perceived. Why they're either being
respected or being liked.
Men by and large have a larger margin
of error with how they can behave. So that
assertiveness is on the spectrum
much broader in terms of how
it's being received by those perceiving it,
maybe more positive. Ray: It's interesting isn't it that in Great Britain and
Germany, Theresa May and Merkel
are women leaders in
countries that you would think that culture would be
resistant to electing women leaders but they've
... overcome that obstacle haven't they? Allyson: Yeah.
And well you know there are still challenges
[Oh, sure] right now obviously. I wouldn't say they've overcome,
I mean, did you...see
Ray: To be elected I meant. At least to be elected. Allyson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
absolutely, so they definitely when you see that.
The fact I mean many countries have had
women at the most senior levels being
elected. Ray: South American countries that have... Allyson: Yeah. South American.
It will be nice when it's no longer something we
have to highlight and disguise.
You know, that it's just normal. We, our point of view
is let's get beyond the first, the first
female chancellor, the first prime minister.
But also lets look at how are we judging
the women. We are holding them often to these higher
standards than men in the
workplace. But we can see it in government. We can see it in other
ways. One of
our research, we've been tracking 10,000
NBA graduates, to see, men and women alike,
to test out some myths why women aren't advancing
and why they are. And what they're
doing to do that and what not. And what we
found is that one of the studies we looked
at on the myth of the ideal worker
is that women must prove performance.
They're promoted based on that proven
performance. Whereas men are promoted based
on potential. So how we evaluate
talent is ... really
rooted deep down into... Ray: That's very interesting.
You know does she have what it
does she have enough experience? Less likely to
take a risk on a man who they might
perceive has that experience. Or they look for
the potential. So there a lot of there are various
barriers but this is one of the
biases I run into the most. Ray: So when you
work with a large company and if a large company asks
your organization to come in [mmhmm]
do you ...get to work with the boards? Because I would guess that's it the
boards that really are the decision
maker to get that person to that next level. Are those boards
usually receptive to what you have to say? Allyson: Oh that's a good
question. They are. And what's interesting...
by the time we are coming in to that board
they're usually... The board is
much more open to this than the layer below.
[really?] Or the layers below. The reason being
there are many reasons for that I guess.
One of the things that we have noticed is
when you know often times
what engages...well let me say it differently.
The boards are largely made up of men. That's a given.
That's not a stereotype. We see it across the board.
That you know they're largely
usually one or two women are on the boards globally.
But what we know is what engages
what blocks men from
engaging, now I'm talking about the middle layers, not the board.
Is this fear. This fear of
if I help her advance. Or if I if I
you know support gender equality
somehow I'm going to lose out. It's almost
like they see it as a pie.
And when and it's not a pie because
it's kind of like if I take one piece out and a woman gets piece
what will happen to me? Well who said that was your
piece of pie to begin with? But
what the challenge is if you want to think about a pie
companies have to think about the pie ever expanding.
That the more women
and the more diverse women, not only women but
white women, women of color that we have.
It is directly tied to better
performance of a corporation. So the boards coming back
to your question, the boards get that. They
usually get that. Much earlier than before we come in.
The challenge is and this happened I won't say
what country in Europe but I was invited to sit with
the CEO and the board. And to sit there
and do kind of a session on unconscious
bias. To find out what is going on.
And they had some real ahas and it was a
really powerful session at how open they
were with why they were
cautious about the topic. But they were much
more open to it then the level
below. So I also had a session with the levels
below... largely male...
Ray: And that's where the resistance is isn't it? Allyson: Whoa. I thought it was going to be
tarnished and thrown out of the room. [laughing] I mean it was
but once they understood that this is
not about giving anybody a hand up.
This is just about looking beyond the usual suspects
of who you deem as being as the best
talent. So one example I
would use with that group of leaders is I would say
okay. You know let's say you're in the group "Ray".
Ray, we have a group of 100 people here in the room.
You and I are going create
a super all-star team. You get to
chose from the whole room your
all-star team. And I get to chose from half the
room. Whose going to have the best team?
You are. Because you are looking
broader and wider. That is all.
That is not all but that is what we're asking companies to do
is look beyond
the usual suspects. Stop picking people
like you. It's unconscious. It doesn't mean
even if you're really intentional and very supportive
of this you need to have other
mechanisms in place to ensure
that your unconscious bias isn't coming in and
filtering through your decision making.
The heart of it is you cannot
possibly believe that you have the
best talent and ultimately are super
innovative if they all look and think like you.
Because to serve the market you need to.. [diversity] you need
that diversity. You cannot
and so the board, they get that. [mmhmm]
They know. The way the status quo is
right now it is not sustainable for their
business. Ray: So if a company, a large company
asks your organization to come in. And you
show the research and you show the barriers that
people have, what's the next step that most
of these companies do? Do they still work with you or do they
connect to someone else that does
training for this? Or what's the next stage? Allyson: Well the stage is the
solutions. So what we...are known
for our research and our content and knowledge
we have also have the solutions that we've learned
from working with over you know 800 large
corporations. And...really seen
not only what worked but what sometimes you learn
a lot more from what hasn't worked. There's not
a one size fits all. Often
times so going to your question. The solution
would be looking at where is your biggest
pain point? Where's your biggest challenge?
Awareness is only a small part of it.
In this day and age it's really
got to be yes. We're going to be aware there's a challenge.
And that's the foundation but how do you
create change? You create change in
a number of ways. Absolutely one example I
shared already, work with leaders.
You need leaders to understand that
this is in their best interest. In the
companies best interest. That progress
for women is progress for everyone.
On the other hand
it may be that there's that pocket of resistance
that you really need to work with. And
one thing that we've been doing that across globally that
was really I
it doesn't sound humble but I would say it's very cutting edge because
it's not not a lot are doing this at the moment.
But we do engage in
men workshops where we work with men directly.
That middle layer, that resistance.
In Europe, they call it the marzipan layer.
Which I think can be derogatory because it makes
it sound negative. But it's that...layer
that really you need to engage.
And so for years of you know
companies looking at this topic they were
unconsciously looking at women. Okay women we
need to fix the women. Women need to become more confident,
more assertive. You need to do this. It's the wrong way to
go about it. You need to focus on the system.
Fix the workplace. So that not only
women can benefit but men too. So
when we do engage in men workshops it's called
MARC. It stands
for Men Advocating for Real Change.
And we have had big CEO's go through
it. Such as Michael Dell from Dell
went through it. Dell has done a lot. Proctor & Gamble
has done a lot on it. As have
other companies. What they do is they
go through this really experiential
workshop. No PowerPoint. Maybe there's a PowerPoint but
not much on it.
Really for them to experience
what it means first to feel like the other.
To feel like the oddball. Because many men don't
feel like they belong to that dominant group.
Bu the next layer has seen the
unconscious bias that's happening. How the
workplaces are being experienced by women verses
men. And then finally
really this is the kicker
for many is understanding that they
have a privilege. And the most men you ask them...
if I ask you Ray, what's your privilege? You might be able to
list maybe I mean you're more self aware, maybe
10. But most people can list maybe 3
privileges that they might have or 5.
Most men when they go through this workshop
they really experience their
privilege. And that for
the leaders is the biggest shock.
And they go home to their
families and their partners or their children
and they have conversations like do you really need
to think, do you think about this? You know, do you worry
about your safety? Where you park?
Do you you know some things you never think about. They
never maybe think about.
It kind of opens a door. And then the
it's a bit shocking in a positive way.
But it I guess
the heart of the most effective kind of
workshop with a MARC
is that you have awareness.
And a lot of companies want to go awareness to
action. But if you don't get that acceptance
piece the heart of what it's really
about. You're not going to make change. So it's
really getting at the heart of it.
Ray: Obviously there's some significant
differences between working with the leadership companies,
corporations and governments. [Oh yes] I'm kind of
I'm interested to know what kind of governments
have approached your organization? I know some
governments that should but I don't think they are. Allyson: Yeah. I know. So
we can I can't share any company
names, I can't share other than the ones that have gone [sure]
public. I shared Dell and Proctor & Gamble only because
they've talked publicly in certain
ways about MARC. But there was I can
say that there was a European government agency.
That's the most I can say.
It is different
because we
I remember...that you know you have to have thick skin
sometimes with this topic. Because when you
tap into fairness, people feel oh it's unfair.
No it's not about... it is
really... it is about fairness. But it's really...
much more than that.
What happened with the government, I remember going in.
I we didn't even talk about
gender. We talked about inclusive leadership. How
to get the most out of a diverse group.
Long story short, there were a row of
hecklers in the back of the room. [hecklers?] Hecklers. Never had hecklers
in my life before. [laughing] I do a lot of speaking
and a row of hecklers. And they were very
angry. [At you?] I never
talked about women. I talked about inclusive leadership. They were
angry about the topic. And I
remember during a break, going what's going on?
And I found out, governments are different. They
usually have quotas. They usually have that so for them
it was all about the quota.
And we don't take the position that there... Ray: Quota meaning the
number of women Allyson: Quota, like you need to have a number of women and you need to [okay]
have another. [right] So it was in their eyes very much a
token way of thinking. And then I
understood it. The heart of the push back there
is men don't want to be
left out. The opposite, women
push back too. Women don't want be
singled out. Women don't want to be seen as
a token. Who does? Nobody does.
But rarely do we ask ourselves when that man got that job
or that new CEO, that he was a token.
We often assume it's a woman.
So the government
often it becomes political. And it often becomes
it's so tied to. Is it this? Is it about politics?
Or is it about this? No. This is
really about good business and
this is about creating
a better workplace so that women can
succeed but men can succeed
and businesses can succeed. Ray: So one of your big
challenges is to go into these organizations
in a non-threatening way [yes] to get this information
to people isn't it? I can see that's a challenge...Allyson: Yeah. Well what
inspires people is not feeling
shamed and blamed. You've got to come into
it and the work especially with
engaging the dominant group. Men are part of the
solution. We can't make them be the
problem. That's not... the solution. [right]
But they have...they're making up the upper
echelon. So they have a lot of power to create change. Ray: We are almost
out of time. [okay] But if you can tell us how
would someone get information? I know you have a website. [yeah]
And I think you also have information on the things you do
on that website in video format. Do you not? Allyson: Yeah,
many. We have online trainings for free. You don't have
to be a member of Catalyst. The website is
www.catalyst.org.
And
Catalyst or just google Catalyst and
so you'll find our website. Ray: And you are
international but it is a headquartered technically in America.
[in America] Is it in New York City? [yeah]
Your director is a woman? Allyson: Yeah.
Our CEO is a woman and
we have
..boards made of CEO's. Our
BOD is a board of CEO's of the biggest corporations.
So if you'd look. If you go to Catalyst, you will see a
list of all the CEO's that are on the board. Ray: Very
interesting topic. [Thank you] Very timely. Thank you for taking the time
to jump on board with us. We appreciate it Allyson. Allyson: Great. Thank you for having
me. Thank you. Ray: You bet. You've been watching Lakeland Currents,
where we're talking about what you're talking about. I'm Ray
Gildow. So long until next time.
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