Good morning everyone.
It is wonderful to have you listening in to our webinar,
School Zone vs Work Zone - What's the difference?
This webinar is proudly brought to you by the
National Road Safety Partnership Program, or NRSPP,
in partnership with ARRB Group and of course the Downer Group.
My name is Rosemary Pattison and I will be
your moderator today.
I will co-moderate the session and provide tech support.
So we'll just click through. Thank you Jim.
My esteemed colleague Jerome who manages the
NRSPP and its many activities joins me in the
studio as our primary moderator today.
Thank you very much Rosemary.
Thank you Jerome.
For anyone joining us for the first time, could you
tell us a little more about NRSPP and its purpose?
Certainly. The NRSPP has been established to provide a
collaborative network for Australian businesses and
organisations to help them create a positive road
safety culture both internally and externally.
It aims to help all organisations of all sizes
across all sectors to share and build road safety
initiatives specific to their own workplace and beyond.
It's delivered by ARRB and funded primarily by
government coalition and ARRB, and I'm really
looking forward to hearing from Jim today.
This has actually been one webinar I've been lining up
for a long time, so it's with pleasure we can
actually hear all about Jim's experience at Downer.
Good morning.
Good morning Jim.
Good morning Rosemary.
And we'd like to thank Jerome for
getting this happening, and thanks to Jim.
It's my absolute pleasure to welcome Jim to the studio today.
Jim Appleby. Jim is currently National General Manager,
Road Surfacing for Downer Infrastructure Services.
Jim has strong expertise in the areas of strategic
business management, team leadership and complex
contract delivery in roads, highways and airfields.
Jim joined Downer Infrastructure in 2011 with
a vision of zero harm workplace through embracing
behavioural change.
Jim has a passion for the asphalt industry and its people.
So over to you Jim. Let's get started.
Good morning everybody, and thank you for the
opportunity to talk to you today about what I think is
a critical subject for road safety and particularly
those that work on it.
The presentation is titled School Zone vs Work Zone,
What's the Difference?
And really I'm posing a question to you the
audience regarding that.
As you can see on the slide we have two very
similar situations, the school zone and the work zone,
both of which many people interact with on a
regular basis, both of which are mums and dads employed,
and moving and working around an area, managing traffic,
managing the safety of people on foot around that.
Both require drivers to observe limits and respect
the work they're doing in order to do with safety and
allow both the sites and the public to function around that.
One's controlled by a crossing assistant, or as I
would term a lollypop lady or gentleman, and the other
is controlled by a traffic controller.
And the reality is to me there is no difference.
But there are some startlingly different facts
when you dig under the surface.
And I want to focus very much on our work zones
because of the data we've collected and amassed over
the last few years.
And just to point out between January 2012 and
July 2016 we've recorded 3,665 near misses of
members of the public doing the wrong thing as they
travel through our work sites.
Now every night we have up to 2,000 people on the
network facing some quite serious dangers, many which
we aren't directly in control of and the public
play their part in.
And this data is profound about the dangers we face,
which is why we wanted to compare it to a school zone
where I think you'd see the levels are vastly different
because of how the public perceive
the work that's going on.
How different is that? Why would that be?
I think, and rightfully so, a crossing assistant is
held in very, very high esteem in the community.
They're there protecting our future generations,
our children.
And I think a 40 zone is - people are compelled
through their moral obligation to obey the
speed limit, and the crossing assistant is there
doing some dutiful work for our future generation.
I think that's the view of the public.
I think in terms of the roadworks we're
considered a nuisance.
The training of those two people,
what difference is there?
Is there much between a lollypop and a controller?
Almost identical, and the service they offer
is almost identical.
It's keeping the public and the traffic and pedestrians
safe around their work zone, and that work zone
is outside of a school or on a road.
So almost identical activity.
And we've got an interesting comment from John.
Do you want to read that Jerome?
Certainly.
Surely the difference is that the police enforce
legislated rules.
They don't enforce a 'nice to have'.
I think that could be a valid point John, and maybe
one we explore as we move through the next few slides
in the presentation.
So what we see at our work sites is -
the 3,665 we broke down into three areas.
So these are reported by people from our work sites,
and as you can see we've got 44 percent or 1,600,
just over, people breaking traffic rules
or just careless driving.
Nearly 900 occurrences of speeding,
and as we all know speed kills.
Above 40 kilometres an hour you're literally in the lap
of the Gods as to whether you survive on impact or not.
And really worrying is the 32 percent of verbal and
physical abuse, and I mean physical abuse also.
So we've had nearly 1,200 cases where the public have
felt the need to interact with us when actually we're
trying to do our jobs.
The worry is that's gone up dramatically.
We're seeing more and more of this abuse coming back to us,
which tells me fundamentally there's something not right.
Is there specific areas?
Is it happening more in regional?
Is it happening more in certain states, or is it
happening more in cities, or where is this sort of
aggression coming from?
When you look at the data breakdown -
and remember we use data for this.
This isn't guesswork - we see the metro areas or the
big cities, the main conurbations where it's
dramatically higher.
In the regional - I've got to be honest, the regional
data shows actually that the drivers and the
interaction with the public is much better,
and inherently all the guys feel much safer,
even on the higher speed roads.
And that abuse factor is profound.
Interesting.
Actually we've just got a question through here from Don.
Has any research been done on how many incidents occur
at school crossings under supervision of a SCS?
I haven't got access to that data, but what I did do is
do a bit of Google mining just to see what I could pick up.
I couldn't find many incidents at all.
I could find one reference in The Courier-Mail last year
about they'd seen 70 acts of speeding through a school zone,
and that was picked up data.
From what I've seen and the data I can mine,
it is far safer than it is on a roadworks site.
I'm just going to give you a few seconds just to have
a look at maybe one or two examples of the words
spoken by people who call our near miss line -
and this is their words, not our interpretation -
to give you some understanding of the abuse and the
situations they face in their words rather than ours.
I'll just give you a few seconds.
Just while our audience are reading those through Jerome,
which one sticks out for you?
There's multiple ones.
There's ones here when - I think people don't realise
how abuse affects people.
Abused the TC and had a female TC almost in tears,
and another one when they're actually getting
things thrown at them.
So what are these sort of things being thrown at -
and then what do you do to deal with some of these
people and the abuse they have to put up with on the roads?
How do you find that as the manager of them all?
We have a legal and moral obligation to our staff
to keep them safe.
We try and do things around their wellbeing and promote
things like conflict resolution, but as a car
comes past he's gone.
I'll tell you first hand I was hit by a bottle once on
the M4 in Sydney, and this is the sort of things we face.
This is just their words, you know.
We take it really seriously, which is why
we're here today, to try and enlist some help
towards making it a little bit of a better experience
for those doing their jobs.
What's the sort of makeup of the workforce that's
out there, of your guys that are out there?
Interestingly our traffic controllers I'd say
are around about 60/40 percent, 60 men, 40 ladies.
So it's actually a really balanced workforce.
We find female traffic controllers particularly
are superb at diffusing situations.
You know, they really are much more in tune with that.
And we look for a balanced workforce here.
Awesome We've had two questions there Jerome.
Would you like...
One of the ones we've got here we can sort of hold through,
because I know Jim will be answering that in a moment,
about where the data's come from and how
you've put all that together.
So that's something to look forward to very soon.
Okay. Well thank you for the questions.
Keep them coming in.
We'll ask them along the way.
And this is one of the main questions.
So the experiences I've just told you about on the
roadworks site, if it was a school zone what would happen?
And I've just put down there five points that
I think would come into action very, very quickly.
Double demerits - if you want to speed through
a school zone you're going to face a penalty.
There would be press interest.
I found one article in The Courier-Mail recently,
however if this level of information was being
sought from crossing assistants the press
would be all over it.
There would be public outcry I can assure you.
If it was going through the school zone of my little girls,
there would be a public outcry.
There would be political involvement.
Politicians would be enlisted to drive change,
and we think there would be immediate action with this
level of data that we've picked up if this was a school zone.
So I actually think the school zone and the work
zone are out of kilter when it's doing exactly the same job.
For those of you out there, we had the list from
Jim of some of the things his data has put up,
and Evan's raised a really good one here saying in
Queensland there was even a traffic controller who was
shot at last year, not with Downer but another traffic
controller nonetheless.
Yep. It's terrifying. It's a terrifying thought.
And you know, we need to drive a behavioural change
to make it more palatable.
So for you, how do you - I guess we'll be touching on
this very soon and further, but thinking how do you
supply your staff with a safe workplace?
We start at elimination as you should, in eliminating risks.
So we would prefer a road closure wherever possible
to limit the amount of interaction we have to have
with the public.
But we also take our obligations really seriously.
You know, conflict resolution, better planning
to make it easier for the public to navigate our works,
trying to take away some of those frustrations
that we can inflict upon ourselves occasionally.
Working with the likes of TMC in Sydney, who are very
methodical about how it allows works to happen on the
network to try and reduce the effect that roadworks causes.
There can be congestion quite obviously for closing
roads and closing lanes, so in a much more organised fashion.
But you know, the challenges will always be there.
It's really interesting.
To me we spend our life fixing what every motorist breaks.
All we're doing is repairing the damage that
the cars and the trucks and all other vehicles
do to the network, and we get abused for it.
Now in my eyes if we stopped doing that,
if this industry said 'No more, we're done,' it would be
very quick to see how public opinion would change
and drive it when the roads weren't possible.
Can't get to work, the economic infrastructure is affected.
This is a serious subject.
And that's all we're doing.
We aren't out there just for the good of our health,
we're out there repairing the network.
That's what we're employed to do by the public,
and we have to face peril for that.
And lots of drivers - don't get me wrong, we interface
with huge amounts of the public, and the public
sentiment is always reasonable with the majority.
However there are people out there who clearly see
us as an issue when we're just trying to fix what
their very car breaks.
There's that perception.
You've got weather and everything as well to battle.
We have multiple conditions, you know.
Zero harm is at the heart of our business, and I know
if I was speaking on behalf of any of our competitors
they're no different.
And you know, we have to worry on multiple fronts
and manage our risks on multiple fronts.
So every bit of help we get can only be assistance.
And looking at some of the feedback coming through as well,
it appears even some of the school zones aren't alone.
One fellow, David:
My wife is a crossing supervisor and she has given
up reporting drive throughs because they never get acted on.
So we need more education so drivers understand the
laws applicable to work zones and children's crossings.
We have to create that link to people.
Your car will - in an argument between a car and a human being,
I've never seen one report of a human being winning.
And I genuinely believe we don't have to accept
this is the status quo.
We're better than this in the society.
We're in a wonderful country.
We have a wonderful life, and we should accept better.
One of the questions earlier was about where
the data comes from.
So we use a near miss line to identify it.
So I'm just going to give you a brief overview
as to how that works.
So a near miss is a report and it has a really
complicated definition which is there on the screen.
I'm not going to try and read it, because I get lost
halfway down.
But in essence if the box falls on the chap's head,
that's an incident.
If it falls anywhere near where he thinks it's unsafe,
that is a near miss. So what we're trying to
promote is people reporting things that nearly happen.
And it's based on a theory from a guy called Frank Bird
who came up with Bird's Triangle.
He went across industry, he looked at 2.5 million
incidents and came up with the following synopsis really.
And what he said is that for every fatality you've had,
there will have been ten times there's been
a serious injury in that category.
He said there's also 30 times there will have been
a minor injury in that category.
But really interestingly what he also said is that
over 600 times there will have been a near miss.
Now a lot of people look at the triangle and say so if you
get to 601 near misses somebody dies.
The important word is over.
So there will have been at least 600 times it nearly happened.
So we use Bird's Triangle to try and create some data,
and we use this as our philosophy.
So at Downer, a near miss - and I'll give us a little plug -
we call it 'Mate that was bloody close'.
The 'bloody' was a slightly different word at the start,
but I got overruled.
But it's built on the values of Australian mateship,
and it's been going for four years.
It's a very simple theory for our guys and girls
to understand.
You ring a telephone number, you leave a message.
At that point we deal with the whole data stream,
the trend analysis, the feedback to people who've called.
So it's really simple, and that's why we think
our teams like it.
It's not a big burden to make it work.
And the picture at the side is Beaconsfield mine disaster,
and we put that up as a great example of
Australian mateship because we've got into this.
The reality is the mine disaster may possibly have
been avoided had the near miss reporting have been better.
So it's a double edge sword now.
How interesting.
And that's the report.
So you may think that doesn't sound too many.
I would hazard a guess, and certainly on talking to
other people from the construction industry,
the level of reporting within the Downer roads
business is mammoth.
So to give you an example, most companies would tell
you 100 reports a month is exceptional.
We're getting nearly 1,000 reports a month at the moment.
So the culture of reporting is really good on a full
range of near misses, not just about the public,
but about some of the things we get wrong as well.
And so we've got 17,500 data points to actually
do trend analysis.
But is it a bad thing that there's so many reports
coming in?
Does that mean things are going bad, or what does that mean?
Until you understand the depth of the issues,
you'll never understand the real problems and
how to solve them.
Some people would say you've got that many
near miss reports, you must be really unsafe.
If you look statistically, our lag indicators,
our LTIs and MTIs are extremely low.
We are well ahead of what the mining industry would
operate at when it comes to the benchmark.
So our lag indicators support that our safety
performance is really good.
I actually think this is realistic of what's really
going on in the world.
I think it is a dangerous environment, and not having
a line of sight - you know, ignorance is not bliss.
Just because you don't know about it,
doesn't mean it's not happening.
I'd encourage anybody to open in to near miss
reporting to get a real understanding of where the
challenges are that they face.
As I've said it gives us lots of data, and we can
look at data in many, many different ways.
So we can look at it by state, location, business unit,
by time of the day, by the person reporting if they
wish to leave a name, and all manner of different approaches.
And I put this slide up with some shame to be honest,
but data is the source of all truths.
At a conference last year in Sydney I presented and I
suggested using the data we had, understanding where we are,
how many traffic controllers we have,
how many traffic controllers we believe are in Australia.
I predicted within 28 days there'd be a serious
incident involving a traffic controller in Australia,
and I'm really sad to report that I was wrong by one day.
I'm really sad to report that it happened at all,
but a TC in Queensland - not in the Downer business let
me add - was tragically killed by a member of the public.
So data being the source of all truths is important.
I can remember getting an email from you when you
said 'Look, sadly this has happened'.
Yep. And at that conference I told people we had 28 days
to change our ways and change our business.
It's a constant challenge.
You know, we have to see it for what it is
and do things about it.
What we use Bird's Triangle for is to think differently,
and this is at the heart of near miss really.
We don't think it's just one trial, and we think
Frank was slightly wrong.
I don't know if Frank's still around to tell that,
but that's just our interpretation.
Because near miss is built on risk, so we think the
more near miss data you're getting, the more people
are reporting, the more opportunity you have to
stop the incident.
So the blue is the nothing's happened,
nobody's been hurt.
Everything above the blue is somebody is being hurt
or something is being damaged.
So the more you understand, the more chances you have
to reduce that, and that's reflected in our own safety
performance as well.
So it seems to bear fruit.
We're comfortable with the approach we have.
And when someone identifies a near miss,
do they provide a solution or do they have the opportunity
to do that as well?
It's really interesting as we watch this change over time.
Rather than now just report, many people are
telling you what's happened and what they've done to fix it.
So we think the near miss reporting line, as well as
several other initiatives we've done,
has started to change the DNA of our people,
to become proactive rather than passing the
responsibility to everybody else to solve it,
which is just gratifying when you read it.
People are thinking differently, and that's
where we wanted to go.
We're working on several things.
You know, all the problems don't sit with the public. Trust me.
We have many of our own and we're more than aware of that,
around traffic movement particularly and
public interface.
We put certain exclusion zones into play.
We spent a lot of money this year making sure we
rolled out a really simple rule, which has gone down
really well in our business.
We've used Go-Pro surveillance, putting a
Go-Pro on the front of a traffic controller so we
can actually see what they see.
And I kid you not, sometimes it's terrifying
watching a 55 tonne B-double career down the
road at 100 kilometres an hour then move over
at the very last minute.
You know, this is why this is a serious subject.
This is the sort of thing that goes on.
Do you think the traffic controllers are crossing
their fingers a few times behind their back hoping
for the best?
We try and institute some really formal rules around
you are never to be in the line of fire.
You're always to stand to the side.
That's just asking for trouble.
A momentary relapse in one person
could cause profound issues.
So always be prepared.
We always light our traffic controllers so
they're well seen.
So we have some procedures, as do most companies,
many traffic control companies around that sort of thing.
Conflict resolution training is really important.
Effective work site management.
What's a red zone?
So the red zone is our no go area on our own sites.
So we have exclusion zones, and rather than use words
like exclusion which sound incredibly silly in an
accent like mine, we call it the red zone.
Our red zone is ten metres behind or ten metres in
front of a vehicle for the full width of the vehicle,
and you're not allowed to enter it full stop.
How do you arrive at ten metres?
We actually engaged our workforce.
We call them the baker's dozen.
Thirteen practitioners - not managers, not people
who sit and read emails all day, but people out in the
field who have to work with rules to make them effective,
to come up with that rule.
And that's the rule they came up with.
We're really happy that we have engagement model for change,
and so it's driven by operatives from the field for the field.
There's a whole list of other things we've done there.
Banning mobile phones, which I think is important.
Checking all the signage.
Lots of people who drive through, when you get
the feedback, get very frustrated that our signage
is not good enough.
And if they go from one of our work sites to
a different work site, the signage changes.
So we double check and we audit our signage quality
to make sure we're giving members of the public as
much opportunity to get the information as possible.
Just while we're drawing on that, we've got a really
interesting question here from Karen.
And she's sort of made the point that there was a work
site she was going through that was 40 k's an hour,
and drivers were regularly travelling through at 60 k's.
This was mentioned to the Council and they put
a speed display trailer out with a radar facility as well,
and immediately drivers slowed down.
So the question is has there been much research
conducted around the signage at work sites?
Yes. We've done both covert speed and using the board
Karen mentions to advertise and check speed,
and it does make a difference.
What we have found however, it makes a difference when
they go past the sign, for the length of the sign,
and then they speed back up.
So people will react to the sign and slow down,
almost like a school zone, but once they're through the
sign we've seen many cases of them speeding up.
So we have a traffic management division in
Queensland, a guy called Andrew Clements, who's done
some fabulous trials with various methods of trying
to understand human behaviour.
You'll see a little bit of that when we talk about
the emotive link.
So yes we have.
Yes, it does have a positive impact, but the
impact wears off if people realise there is
no penalty with it.
So over time it sort of diminishes as well do you think?
Absolutely right. We've seen that.
If we're on works for multiple days and the
sign's there, it has an impact on night one greater
than night two and greater than night three.
Just want to finish up with the Back to Blue.
We're an organisation who pride ourselves on
understanding our work teams and the troubles they face,
and all managers in Downer Roads go back to
working in the crew for a week a year.
Everybody has to do it, and it's been an enlightening
experience for all managers to help us hone where we
need to focus on our safety.
So have you gone through that yourself?
Yeah. I did it on the spray sailing crew in the Pilbara,
43 degrees every day.
But if it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough
for the gander.
It was actually a really enlightening experience.
I also did a week in Sydney, and the difference
in driver behaviour is incredible.
So you're looking at these huge road trains moving up
and down - I couldn't remember the name of the
freeway I'm sorry - in the regional areas, and they
work with the traffic controllers.
So they know the roadworks are on.
They'll slow down.
Sometimes you'll have the road shut for several minutes.
They'll park up, they'll wait with a deal of patience.
The professional drivers that circumnavigate
Australia are extraordinary, and actually
help rather than hinder.
In Sydney it was like a battleground.
There was one guy stood on the bonnet of his car so he
could throw abuse from a slightly higher level than
if he'd just been doing it out the window,
just waiting for us to reopen the road.
So I know that's very broad spanned to give you the
two examples, but I do believe the regional routes we get
far more help than we do in the metro areas.
Some extreme examples there.
Rules are great, but what we're finding more than
anything now is that people are desensitised almost
because of what they see on TV.
You know, if you look at the cigarette packet now
if you smoke cigarettes and it shows you a picture of
somebody in a terrible state, we think there's been
a lot of desensitising people about shock horror tactics.
It's no good me showing people pictures of traffic
controllers who have been mowed down.
We've done a bit of research, and I've got to
be honest we stole some good ideas out of the TAC,
and I say that with meaning.
They come up with some fabulous stuff.
Because we're very much focused on the emotive link
to the public now.
We're trying to create the understanding that the
people on the roads are actually people,
and you might well know one.
If you think there's only 22 million people in Australia,
I would hazard a guess everybody knows a traffic controller.
Everybody.
If you think is it seven steps of separation?
Kevin Bacon. Yep.
Yep. The Kevin Bacon.
Everybody will know one, and we're trying to create
that link, that for all you know this could be your friend.
The links are even smaller now.
4.2 apparently if you have Facebook.
So we've done some trials out of our Queensland business,
and Andrew Clements and Neville Moon.
So if you need any information, I'm happy for
anybody to get in contact with the guys up there.
Here's a couple of examples.
So we're using VMS to highlight that these are parents,
these are real people.
When somebody gets hurt on a work site, you would be
amazed at how many people it touches.
I've had one death in my time, a story that's been
well regaled and some of the audience will have
heard it, and he was my first boss.
And Colin died, but the effect was huge.
I would hazard a guess it touched 10,000 people
directly or indirectly because of families
and associations, friends.
We try to create that link back that these are people.
These are real people.
These are potentially your friends.
So give them a hand.
So he writes the sign.
A fabulous idea.
We actually put a cut out - and this was the approval
of TMR who were happy for us to do this trial -
of the dad with the two children.
There's a cut out on the site, and Andrew's
monitored driver behaviour around that and I'm just
waiting on the results to see if it's changed.
But it's all about this emotional link thinking there
is a cause and there is an outcome related with my actions.
We try to make it a lot more personal.
Do you think some people disconnect the people on
the work sites to - are they sort of viewed as
equipment possibly, or they just don't view them as
this is their workplace?
I mean to be perfectly honest, there's a fabulous
advert I saw some time ago.
I think it's actually out in the UK where it shows a
car driving through a school classroom and
through a surgeon's theatre, and asked the
question would you do that and why would you go
through somebody else's work zone any differently.
I think we're just seen as a nuisance.
I don't think people can connect with the value
we actually bring.
I'm sure we're playing our part in that.
I'd be really interested for some feedback.
But you know, we're not seen as adding value,
when actually we're keeping the essential network of
Australia operational.
We're seen as an inconvenience.
And there's a question here from Paul that says:
Is it a fact that drivers are not educated about signs?
Do you think that's a factor?
It's a really good question.
The answer is that I don't know.
I think we can become almost overwhelmed by the
amount of signs advertising around these days.
I know Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London,
took almost half of the road signs down because
he believed there was too much information.
It's not about what they're seeing, it's about how
they're behaving when they get there.
That's what I would say.
The driver behaviour irrespective of the sign
isn't changing as they go through the roadworks.
And I don't know how much the sign would drive change.
It would certainly help.
Good signage always does.
It prepares people.
And what we're seeing is governments start to give
people better expectations that your journey will be
disrupted and it will be disrupted by X amount of time.
Interestingly to slow down and drive through a 40
kilometre an hour work zone, which is about say a
kilometre long, it costs you about 20 seconds of your life.
That's all.
And what would you say also - because I think one
of the common issues that pops up is people go
'There's a work site out. No one's on it. Where are they?'
Yeah. I think we are masters of our own downfall
in some situations.
The problem with a lot of road repairs is they move
horizontally very quickly.
So you've got to give them enough work and enough
space to keep it moving, and you can't reset the start point.
So you can't take it off, put it on and keep that work moving.
We have to provide an efficient delivery to the network.
So there may well be gaps.
We also have seen examples from around the industry
where we haven't exactly got it right.
That's not us taking the moral high ground.
We have issues to resolve of our own as well.
And I've got to be honest, I don't think they're as
often as people tend to remember.
And an interesting comment there, the higher the
income the worse the attitude.
Talking about the areas that some people travel
through are better for workers.
We've tried to do some geographical checks to see
if there are any hotspots, and we don't believe
it's based on society.
We believe it's based on the network.
So I would say the M4 is a classic example
and a real hotspot, because people face trials
and tribulations every day.
We did some work for some tunnels in Sydney,
and the client we worked for there, a company called
Trans Urban were fabulous.
They got us some assistance when we knew we were going
into a particularly difficult area, and they
actually got police presence.
On the night that the police were there they
actually arrested somebody for dangerous driving
because he swerved at a traffic controller.
Wow.
You know, and he did it to impress his girlfriend.
That's what he told the policeman.
What is that about?
She was particularly impressed when she had to
get the bus home because they impounded his car.
So what do the police think when they actually
have to sit on site and actually provide -
do they sort of - are they aware of the risk that you guys -
and what you guys have to put up with?
Yeah. Queensland particularly actually in many examples
make it part of the contract to have a
policeman there, and we do see some positive impacts
from where the police are.
But again people's behaviour changes when
they're out of sight, out of mind.
But yet there has been some positive impact.
There's a cost impost to society for having a
policeman on site to make sure you're going to do
40 kilometres an hour.
Imagine if we had to put a policeman in every school zone.
At that point society has really broken down.
I'd rather a policeman was out there keeping us all
safe from dangerous people, not a traffic controller
with a lollypop stick.
Exactly. Exactly.
We've also begun the emotive link, and I just
wanted to mention - give you the opportunity maybe
if you'd like to to have a look at this foundation,
so the Georgina Josephine Foundation.
We've aligned with these guys because - I won't tell
you the - go and have a look at the website,
about Peter, the father whose daughter tragically died
under the wheels of his own ute.
And their story is incredibly similar to ours
about safety of people, safety of pedestrians,
safety of people on foot around vehicles.
And these are our charity partners this year.
Their story is amazing.
Two of the most amazing people I've ever met,
Emma and Peter, who have sort of dedicated their life after
the death of their two year old daughter to try
to keep people safe.
My message about roadworks is really important to me.
I want to ask everybody to go and share the dangers around
your house, your driveway, your neighbour's driveway,
with the people who you're around.
Seventeen children have died under the wheels
of a vehicle in this situation on average per year.
That is a horrifying statistic.
Something needs to change.
So we're trying to work with these guys to promote
the work they're doing and to promote the message to
try and keep our children safe.
Most of the time it's a relative as well.
Do you think this also resonates with that problem
group as well, I guess the 18 to 24 young male?
Is this a pathway into their psyche to say look,
this is a high risk environment on the road network,
this is what can happen?
Anything that gets into the psyche - I've got to be honest,
we immediately jump to the fact that many of the people -
and I think it's a common misconception -
many of the people who are abusive at roadworks
are young drivers on P plates.
I don't think that's the case.
Talking to our teams, it's across society.
In fact the P platers feel probably a little bit more
vulnerable because if they break the rules the
penalties to them are greater, if they're caught speeding -
from what I understand if they've got any alcohol
in their blood when they're driving -
when you're on your plates the rules are tighter.
I can tell you it doesn't have an income basis.
It doesn't have a creed, a colour, a religion basis.
It's right the way through society.
To have a traffic controller run over on
purpose by a woman whose daughter was late for a
gymkhana for example - in her words not mine -
it just touches every part of society.
I think it's about how you are and who you are
and where you place your values.
I guess that aligns with Safe Work Australia
released a report a week or two ago, and it was looking
at some trend lines and serious injuries.
And over the last decade there's been a doubling in
person to person serious injuries.
So it sort of aligns with what you're saying.
Just one more.
We've got one from Marnie here as well.
Do you think people get conditioned when signs are
left up and work is not occurring?
Yeah. It's a really good point, and yes, I could see
why that would be a frustration, because it's unnecessary.
And quite rightly as I think David also pointed
out, we really need to up our game and become more
responsive to the public needs as well.
So I'm not saying this is a one way train.
We've got to play our part.
How do you think the smaller operators -
like David sort of asked that question -
the smaller operators that cover or remove the signs.
I guess there's a common sort of theme coming through.
Yep. You've got to be careful.
There are some standards we have to follow.
You have to leave certain signage in place.
So there might be no work going on, but yeah,
depending on the condition of the road or the work
being undertaken or the potential drop offs at the edge,
you might have to leave signage up.
And that signage might have to slow you down
for public safety.
Maybe we don't transmit the message about why it's
being left out sometimes.
So there is an element of that, but there is an
element of where we've got to install better practice.
I'd agree.
But you're doing lots of listening Jim.
I'm doing a lot of talking today though Rosemary aren't I?
Just a couple of examples of the good work that's going on.
So this is a sign that is used by Vic Roads,
creating a link between the granddad, the granddaughters
and he could well be the one on the work site.
So the whole industry is having a push at this,
and that's why we need public help.
Unfortunately these two videos don't work,
but I would really suggest you have a look at them.
And when you talk about the emotive link,
this is it in creation.
NT Government have sponsored by the traffic
control community a video to be made.
And as I said it won't play today sadly, but it's
linking the fact that this is somebody's relatives
who are doing this work.
And the NT Government have been great.
I saw this during the Olympic coverage at
seven o'clock prime time TV.
This advert was on TV, and to me it's fabulous to see
government picking up the mantle and doing some of
the heavy lifting around this.
Is this really the first time any government has -
we saw the billboard, but is the first real major
advertising approach?
Karen asked a really good question, actually asking around
campaigns, so this is what we're feeding into right now.
Yeah. So I think I've seen a few examples.
There's one from TAC which I just think was a game changer.
I think it's a brilliant, brilliant advert.
But the campaign is out there, and I think
government are aware - we use data that we collect
and other companies to show them the risks,
and government are reacting.
Government reacting, public changing is our perfect world.
And this advert - so this is a guy called Francesco.
This is a TAC advert.
Anybody in Victoria may well have seen it.
It's possibly the best advert I've seen in many,
many years to make you think differently.
This guy is not an actor, and when the 70 people walk
around the corner, watch the change in him and then
put yourself in that position.
And I think it opened my eyes up.
The way to get public to change isn't to sit there
and bash them over the head with a big stick and have
double demerits, it's about creating this emotive link to
an outcome where if something goes wrong it could affect them.
The question put to Francesco was how many
people do you think should die on Victorian roads
every year, and the number he chose was 70.
And so then around the corner walked 70 of his family members.
And sitting in the audience when it was launched for
the first time - and I must admit there's not many ads
that give me goose bumps - and you're sitting there
and the whole audience - you can just feel it trickle down.
It's one of those stop moments, and it had a
profound effect on me and it's been shared around our business.
It really helped us shape our engagement model with
our own teams, and a different way to approach it.
Gore, cut fingers - nobody takes any notice no more.
This is just an incredibly good advert.
Fair play to TAC. I'll give them a wrap. It changed our view.
Recently I saw one where they were interviewing
young people who were driving, texting,
Facebooking, Snapchatting, things like that - not that
I know what it all is to be honest - and then a young
lady comes in and sits down and explains how her
parents got killed by somebody who'd been doing that.
You see the power in the message is extraordinary.
That's why that emotive link is really we think the
future of creating a connection to the human psyche.
That's the new AT&T ad from the US, and those kids
were boasting about their behaviour, how good they
could Snapchat, what they could do while they're driving.
They weren't boasting after they sat down with
this young lady for 20 seconds were they?
And we'll send those links to the videos with the
recording to our audience.
So we've just got a couple of questions before
we go on to this one.
Perhaps the signage could differentiate
between work zone...
From Melvin Mosh...
...and change conditions.
So when road workers are present, are you able to
actually provide a clearer indication with regards to
when they're on the site and not on the site?
I think that's a really good point.
I'll follow up on that one Melvin.
Thank you. I'll get good ideas out of this.
I've never thought about that one.
There's another one here from Daniel.
He's saying:
If you want to eliminate the risk, why not look to
remove the traffic controller from the side of
the road and have a mechanised system,
mobile traffic lights and so on?
Yeah. I think we're actually on this journey of change.
Having a traffic controller facing down a
55 tonne truck I'm not a big fan of.
You can tell by the accent I don't originate from Australia.
In the UK they manage traffic rather than control it.
So they use more and bigger equipment and less people.
And I think there is a balance of both.
I think that public interface in urban
environments is really strong, because you're then
dealing with people as well as cars.
So I think there is a balance.
But we've recently undertaken some trials in
Queensland using traffic lights to replace the
person who stood there.
It's not just the traffic controller remember though.
We could have up to 40 people stood not too far
from the traffic controller.
So whilst we can eliminate the traffic controller,
we can't eliminate those people.
But actually if we can change driver behaviour we
can make it entirely safer for everybody, including the driver.
The odd thing is - and I think it's a fascinating fact -
if people as they approach roadworks slow down
to 40 kilometres an hour, they will get home quicker.
Because the indifferent speeds create natural traffic jams.
So the guy travelling at 40, a lady comes up behind at 80,
she has to slow down, rapidly hit her brakes.
Fifteen cars later the traffic stops.
So the actual irregular speed and the person going
too quick creates the traffic jam which causes
the congestion, which causes the angst which
causes the abuse, and you can see how it snowballs out.
I bet a lot of people wouldn't know that.
I think I saw a Vic Roads presentation where the best
thing people could do in the morning rush hour is
just stay in their lane and they'll get to work quicker
and they'll get home quicker, instead of jumping
across lanes.
So I'm sure there is some data behind that and it's factual.
And that creates congestion itself.
That was key message of the TAC, towards zero.
It was. You were at the same conference weren't you?
Yeah. Vic Roads made that point. John Merritt.
Just don't change lanes.
You increase risk and it affects traffic flow.
Really I've come on here because I just want a bit of help.
We've got 2,000 people out on the network.
You think there will be 10,000 people on
Australia's roads every night - that's the reality
of it - trying to do a job, trying to contribute to
society, and as much as you might think it's
an inconvenience, it will be a far bigger inconvenience
if we didn't fix them.
There's a reason we're a first world country.
We have economic status. We can move freight.
We can move people. We can create value.
And all we're doing is our little bit to
contribute to that.
And if 100 people on the call or thereabouts can go and
change one person's behaviour who can change another,
the benefits to all of us are profound.
The reality is if someone dies on an Australian road,
a lot of people feel it.
And none of us want to end up in that - treat a roadworks
zone like the majority of people treat a school zone.
It would give us a greater chance.
It would actually - reality is we'd be more efficient.
We could do more. We could charge less.
We'd save you money in your taxes.
There's a whole series of added benefits.
I can tell you many examples of people who've
been involved in accidents first hand, and the reality
is you don't know if it's going to be you who causes it.
And it is not a good place to be.
I speak from the death of my first boss, and it still
haunts me to this day.
Do something to change other people's behaviour
and indeed your own.
I think that's what a lot of people don't realise.
80 to 90 percent of most traffic crashes, they just happen.
These are things which are momentary spurs in time,
and if everyone takes responsibility and you
share that out we can reduce that risk.
So how would you sleep better at night if people
accept that more?
Would you have a greater rest?
How do you find the pressure you have to deal
with with that many people out on the road?
Well Jerome can see the bags under eyes.
I've never slept particularly well.
We do a lot of work to try and manage our risk
on our work sites.
We try and engage.
We try and use near miss. We have some really
stringent, critical controls.
We have good practice in place.
I'm much happier when I feel as though we can
control our risk, and many of the near misses reported
are things that we need to change and we can then control.
Third party public is the one where it is really,
really difficult to control, and you're almost
at risk from other people's behaviour rather
than your own actions.
If we could get people to follow some of the simple
rules and help us on the journey and provide good
feedback of what we do well and what we do badly,
then it will give us a better chance and I might
sleep a little bit better.
This is where I think it's a good one we can feed in -
there's a question here from Ian.
Could we better utilise social media such as
Twitter for motorists to provide feedback and for
contractors to inform and update the public?
As long as they're not driving while they do it.
I was just about to say that.
I think now the whole platform of how we interact is changing.
Cars are getting smarter, drivers are getting
better informed, if you look at what government are doing
around some of the journey time reliability stuff -
so if you're going from here to there it's going
to be eight minutes.
So we are getting a bit smarter.
I think we always struggle to keep up with technology,
but I think there is a lot of effort going into that space.
So I think yeah, we could. You need to have smart
technology to match it of course.
It's pointless sending somebody a message saying
that roadworks you're approaching is a 40 when
you're going in the other direction.
We've used the telegraph system.
So this is a system where you put a message out over
the radio waves as people approach.
Now that was done on a trial again in Queensland
for TMR and it's what are used in many of the tunnels.
So now as you're in the tunnels you'll get
a message on your radio if there's an incident
telling you what to do.
You're not allowed to use it, because of broadcasting
regulations I understand, wholesale.
But in some specific areas we have seen that, and that
provides a better informed public which is a key part
of what we've got to do.
It's quite comforting when you're in the tunnel and
you've got the radio on and you hear a message.
You feel like they're keeping you in the loop.
Yeah. I agree. I agree.
I thought it was brilliant, and that little snippet of
information allows you as a driver to make choice
and decisions, which I think promoting that
is a really good thing.
Are you aware of any states who actually
coordinate that journey plan where you can go online,
you can see what's going on.
So if I'm doing some journey management and I'm
going from A to B, if I check that on site and I go
wow, I'm going to avoid these sort of spots or...
I couldn't answer that honestly and say
I absolutely know.
What I can tell you is I went on my iPhone the other
day and I put in my journey, and it showed me
red routes on an iPhone.
So I don't know where that information came from as to
where congestion might truly sit.
So there is information available, and I'm sure
there will be people far cleverer than me on the
call who know where that's available from.
But I understand that it's becoming wider available now.
Daniel just came through saying the same thing.
Google Maps. Yeah.
Thank you Daniel for your support on that.
But people have got to take the time to check,
be prepared. I don't know. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
But some of it just comes down to good old fashioned manners.
How often these days when lanes are merging do you see -
you put your hand up and wave and say thank you,
and there's no reciprocation.
It's almost as though it's decided we're becoming
intolerant of each other or time is that critical that
you haven't got a second to spare.
I actually think if people understood what time really
costs them over what it could save them,
we might be in a better place as well.
Great. And Jerome is any question standing out for
you as we start to go towards the end of our webinar?
We always have a plethora of questions coming through,
so we try and feed them on through.
But I'll let Jim move on a little bit more.
I know we're coming up to the end, but I'll grab
a couple more in a tick.
I'm old fashioned.
You get nothing for free in life, and never be
disappointed with a 'no'.
But it's always worth asking the question.
So on the call, what could you do to help?
The reality is everybody could set the example,
actually slow down and have patience, and particularly
if you've got young people in the car with you.
That behaviour as you've seen in one of the adverts
of the young child on the street, young people
follow examples, and if you set that example
it can only be a good thing.
If you raise awareness with your friends and family,
not just at roadworks, but particularly when you're
moving your vehicle around your property,
that the risk to young people is profound.
Seventeen young people have died being run over by relatives.
At least take that message back home,
think about how you park your car.
Think about where the locks on your doors are,
particularly with young children.
Raise the awareness in your organisation.
See if you can get change.
You guys represent some big organisations
from what I understand.
Do something positive around that, and get involved.
As I say, within seven steps you can touch
everybody else in the world apparently, or 4.2.
If you could do something proactive and change the
status quo - we don't have to accept it - it would
really, really help what we're trying to achieve and
help keep our people safe.
We've got two good questions here as well.
What can you do?
I think this actually draws on to some solution
sort of focus as well.
One is around total removal of traffic controller
people is often limited by state government regulations.
Is it different from state to state?
Yes. So we don't have a harmonised traffic control
law in Australia.
One law would actually make it easier for us
as practitioners, but it would make it far more reliable
for the public to understand - particularly anybody
who drives interstate - to understand that is
a set of signs that mean roadworks are coming.
So that standard would be well received I believe.
And Melvin's actually got one in here, and this is a
good agreement for councils, so getting some
leadership from them around data standards for road
alerts, working with suppliers etcetera as well.
Any source of accurate data is well received.
We have a comprehensive system where we've set it
up to use data.
Because quite often people's perception
tends to be their reality.
People's perception - for example every roadworks
there's no work going on.
That's not always true.
But the more data we can amass the better our
decision making will be around where we put the
efforts in to get the best outcomes, be it councils,
be it at school zones.
And to hear that - I can't remember who it was earlier
who said his wife had stopped reporting.
That's the worst thing that can happen really.
You know, we've got to keep - people have got to be
relentless about reporting.
It's the only way you'll bring change is by saying something.
Silence is consent.
And if you think back to that reporting,
if the council's been receiving that warning in a trend
in an area and then a young child is hurt,
no one's acted on that.
God forbid, that's the worst - God, that's the
worst question you're going to answer isn't it?
I mean silence is consent isn't it?
That was a famous advert from some years ago, and
that was around people who got hurt at work on that advert.
But you've got a voice. You need to use it.
I mean God forbid, I've got an eight and a six year old girl.
They go across three school crossings every day.
You know what?
I actually feel - I feel better that they're going
across a school crossing because they're manned.
There's some fabulous people. These are true
volunteers to the community who are selfless and put
other people first.
You know, I've always held the school zone as
something that we should be incredibly proud of, and to
see people's behaviour change has always given me
hope that they can change in a work zone.
If you're seeing something different in a school zone,
it needs to be raised to the school.
The school need to act upon that.
I know for a fact my two little girls, if I saw anything,
I would be straight on the phone.
I have a six and a four year old and I totally
align with you there Jim.
And the reality is - and at the very start it was
school zone vs work zone and I probably wandered off
in a million different directions and gone off topic,
but the reality is there's no difference.
It's exactly the same people.
It's exactly the same circumstance.
A slightly different audience and a slightly
different user, but any failure in either results
in catastrophic harm.
I don't want catastrophic harm in either.
I just want people to be able to go about their
business safely, and let's see what we can do
to drive some change.
Thank you very much Jim.
It's been a pleasure having you in here.
I knew this was going to be a fantastic webinar,
and thank you everyone for the fantastic questions I've heard,
and Rosemary for helping facilitate it as well.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Thank you for the awesome webinar Jim and for coming in.
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