>> DOZENS OF CRIME AND PUBLIC SAFETY BILLS WERE INTRODUCED
IN THIS YEAR'S 60-DAY SESSION.
AT THE SAME TIME, OFFICIALS IN U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ARE
MOVING TO MAKE SIGNIFICANT POLICY CHANGES THAT COULD
IMPACT NEW MEXICO.
IN A DIFFICULT BUDGET YEAR, THE CHALLENGES OF ADDRESSING
CRIME ACROSS THE STATE ARE EVEN GREATER.
THIS WEEK GWYNETH DOLAND LOOKS AT THE COST OF ADDRESSING
CRIME AND WHAT IS AT TAKE IF LAWMAKERS CAN'T SEE WHERE
MONEY IS SPENT IN PRIVATE PRISONS.
THIS SEGMENT IS PART OF THE PEOPLE, POWER AND DEMOCRACY
PROJECT, A COLLABORATIVE MULTIMEDIA PROJECT THAT
EXAMINES ETHICS AND TRANSPARENCY IN STATE
GOVERNMENT.
>> SENATOR MCSORLEY, YOU ARE UP HERE WORKING ON A BUDGET
FOR 2018.
HOW MUCH OF THAT BUDGET DO WE SPEND ON CORRECTIONS?
>> IT IS THE THIRD BIGGEST PART OF THE OVERALL BUDGET FOR
THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.
>> THAT IS PRETTY BIG.
>> VERY BIG AND VERY IMPORTANT.
IT IS THE HEART OF PUBLIC SAFETY FOR OUR CITIZENS.
>> HOW COULD WE SPEND LESS?
>> WELL, IT IS HARD TO GET ANY INFORMATION OUT OF THIS
ADMINISTRATION BUT WE HAVE THE MOST EXPENSIVE PRISONS IN THE
NATION PER PERSON AND WE HAVE THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF OUR
PRISONERS IN PRIVATE PRISONS, FOR INSTANCE, OUR WOMEN'S
PRISON IS 100% PRIVATE.
>> SO, WHY DO WE SPEND SO MUCH MORE MONEY THAN EVERYBODY
ELSE?
>> BECAUSE THEY ARE PRIVATE.
IT IS NOT HARD TO FIGURE IT OUT.
BUT WORSE THAN BEING THE MOST EXPENSIVE IS WE'RE GETTING THE
LEAST NUMBER OF SERVICES.
WE USED TO HAVE PRISON INDUSTRIES, WE USED TO HAVE
LEGITIMATE PROGRAMS TO TRAIN AND RETRAIN PRISONERS.
NOW A LOT OF THAT HAS GONE BY THE WAY SIDE.
>> WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE?
>> I WOULD REINSTATE THESE VERY HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL AND
INNOVATIVE PROGRAMS TO DEFER PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED A
CRIME, BUT THE CRIME IS NOT THE BASIC PROBLEM.
THERE IS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, THERE IS ADDICTION PROBLEMS AT
THE ROOT AND I WOULD REINSTATE THOSE PROGRAMS, DIVERTING
PEOPLE OUT OF THE PRISONS AND JAILS AND INTO PROGRAMS.
THEY HAVE WORKED IN THE PAST AND WE CAN GET THEM TO WORK
AGAIN.
THE SECOND THING I WOULD DO IS FIX PROBATION AND PAROLE.
PROBATION AND PAROLE HAS BEEN NONEXISTENCE IN OUR OVERALL
SOLUTION TO SOLVING OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROBLEM.
OF COURSE, THE OTHER BIG GORILLA IN THE ROOM IS LACK OF
POLICE IN ALBUQUERQUE.
WE DON'T HAVE POLICE ON THE STREET.
CRIME IS GOING UP AND WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO WITH THESE
CRIMINALS AND THESE FOLKS THAT MIGHT BE HEADED IN THE WRONG
DIRECTION IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW.
FOR INSTANCE, PEOPLE ARE BRAGGING THAT OUR DWI ARRESTS
ARE DOWN, BUT OUR DWI'S ARE NOT DOWN.
IT IS A FUNCTION OF NOT HAVING ENOUGH PEOPLE ON THE STREET
POLICING OUR DWI PROBLEM ON FRIDAY AND SATURDAY NIGHTS.
>> SENATOR, YOU MENTIONED PRIVATE PRISONS AND THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION HAS RECENTLY TALKED ABOUT ROLLING BACK THE
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION PLAN AND PHASE OUT PRIVATE PRISONS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?
>> I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THERE IS GOING TO BE NO
JUSTICE IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
WE USED TO LOOK TO THE FEDERAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT UNDER
DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS AND ADMINISTRATIONS
FOR THE NEW CREATIVE IDEAS ON HOW TO DETER CRIMINALS, HOW TO
LOWER CRIME AND WE HAD A 40-YEAR RUN OF LOWERING CRIME
RATES IN AMERICA.
I AM AFRAID ALL OF THAT IS GONE AND NOW THE STATES WILL
BE LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES.
>> PRIVATE PRISONS HAVE BEEN CRITICIZED FOR NOT BEING
TRANSPARENT.
WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT WE GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS
HAPPENING IN PRIVATE PRISONS?
>> FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.
ONE IS THE RECIDIVISM RATE.
IF PRIVATE PROVIDES PRODUCE A LOT OF REPEAT CRIMINALS, THAT
IS NOT GOOD FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC.
SECOND OF ALL, IT IS PUBLIC DOLLARS.
IF THEY'RE NOT USING PUBLIC DOLLARS WISELY, WE ARE FAILING
OUR CONSTITUENTS.
>> THE ACLU IS PART OF A GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE
LOOKING AND EVALUATING CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILLS DURING
THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.
PART OF WHAT YOU LOOK AT IS COST OF THOSE BILLS.
WHAT ARE YOU FINDING?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
WELL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE TRACKING ABOUT OVER 180 BILLS
THIS SESSION.
THAT IS PRETTY TYPICAL FOR THE ACLU.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE HAVE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER TO
DO WITH CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
AND, THEY INVOLVE INCREASING CRIMINAL SENTENCES.
WE SEE THAT EVERY SESSION.
MOST OF THESE BILLS ARE NOT PARTICULARLY WELL THOUGHT OUT,
THEY ARE NOT GOOD POLICY, NOT BASED ON SOLID RESEARCH.
THEY JUST THROW MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL BECAUSE THAT LOOKS GOOD
ON A CAMPAIGN BROCHURE ONCE ELECTION TIME COMES AROUND.
THAT IS UNFORTUNATE.
NEW MEXICO SAFE EXISTS PARTLY TO MAKE SURE WE ARE HAVING A
REALITY BASED DIALOGUE ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY IN OUR STATE AND
WE'RE FINDING THAT IS HAVING AN EFFECT.
WE'RE SEEING LEGISLATORS TALK ABOUT THE REAL COST OF
INCREASED CRIMINAL SENTENCES AND WHETHER THAT IS THE BEST
WAY TO SPEND OUR LIMITED PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS IN THESE
VERY DIFFICULT TIMES.
>> STEVE, SENATOR MCSORLEY TOLD US THAT ABOUT 10% OF THE
STATE BUDGET IS SPENT ON CORRECTIONS.
ARE YOU TELLING US THAT WE ARE WASTING A BUNCH OF THAT MONEY
BECAUSE OF POLITICS?
>> I AM SAYING THAT AND THAT IS NOT TO DISPARAGE ANY OF THE
FINE FOLKS THAT WORK IN CORRECTIONS OR AT OUR COUNTY
JAILS AROUND THE STATE, BUT IT IS A PROBLEM NATIONWIDE.
RIGHT?
WE HAVE A MASS INCARCERATION CRISIS IN THIS COUNTRY.
THE UNITED STATES THROWS FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE INTO OUR
PRISONS AND JAILS WHO DON'T BELONG THERE.
NONVIOLENT OFFENDERS FOR DRUG RELATED OFFENSES, FOR THINGS
THAT COULD BE BETTER DEALT WITH OUTSIDE OF A CORRECTIONS
ENVIRONMENT.
>> YOU RECENTLY VISITED SEVERAL PRISONS IN NEW MEXICO,
WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR AND WHAT DID YOU FIND?
>> WELL, I ACTUALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT WITH A
BRITISH PRISON EXPERT NAMED JOHN PODMORE WHO IS
INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED EXPERT.
HE HAS CONTRACTED WITH UNITED NATIONS, WORKED WITH SEVERAL
COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, INCLUDING ARGENTINA AND INDIA.
IT IS WAS AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY TO WALK THROUGH
THESE FACILITIES WITH HIM, SEE HIM ASK THE QUESTIONS THAT HE
ASKS.
WE VISITED THREE FACILITIES, TWO PUBLICLY RUN FACILITIES,
THE LOS LUNAS ONE, AND THE ONE UP IN SANTA FE, PNM.
AND WE ALSO VISITED WHAT WAS AT THAT POINT THE PRIVATELY
RUN FACILITY FOR WOMEN IN GRANTS THAT IS RUN BY THE CCA
CORPORATION.
AND, WHAT WE FOUND IS JUST A NIGHT AND DAY EXPERIENCE.
WHEN WE WALKED INTO THE PUBLIC FACILITIES, WE COULD ASK
QUESTIONS OF THE CORRECTIONS OFFICERS AND ADMINISTRATORS.
WE COULD SIT DOWN WITH PRISONERS, ASK THEM HOW THEY
FELT OPERATIONS WERE GOING.
WE COULD VISIT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT UNITS.
WE DIDN'T HAVE FREE REIN BUT WHEN WE ASKED QUESTIONS WE GOT
ANSWERS.
WHEN WE TALKED TO THOSE PRIVATE PRISONS, IT WAS THE
EXACT OPPOSITE.
THEY RUSHED US THROUGH QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, BLOCKED OUR
QUESTIONS, WOULD NOT LET US SPEAK WITH PRISONERS.
IT WAS A MAJOR TRANSPARENCY ISSUE AND A HUGE EYE OPENER
FOR US.
>> ACLU OPPOSES THE IDEA OF PRIVATE PRISONS.
IS TRANSPARENCY THE REASON?
>> IT IS ONE REASON.
THEY HAVE AN INCREDIBLY HORRIBLE TRACK RECORD OF DOING
THEIR JOB.
THESE CONTRACTS, WE'RE NOT GETTING WHAT WE ARE PAYING FOR
AS A STATE.
WE HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF PRIVATELY RUN FACILITIES IN
NEW MEXICO.
BOTH HERE AND IN NEW MEXICO AND AROUND THE COUNTRY, IN
TERMS OF LOWER SECURITY, IN TERMS OF EVEN CORRECTIONAL
OFFICER PAY, WHICH IS LOWER IN MOST PRIVATE FACILITIES THAN
IN PUBLIC FACILITIES, YOU KNOW, IT IS JUST NOT WORKING.
THESE -- FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, IT IS A VERY BAD IDEA TO
HAVE MASS INCARCERATION BE A FOR-PROFIT BUSINESS IN THIS
COUNTRY AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE END.
>> REPRESENTATIVE, YOU HAVE A BILL THAT HAS TO WITH
CONVICTED FELONS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR JOBS IN THE
COMMUNITY.
WHAT WOULD YOUR BILL DO?
>> CORRECT.
THIS BILL WOULD PROVIDE FOR A MECHANISM WHERE PRIVATE
EMPLOYERS WOULD NOT ASK A QUESTION ON THEIR INITIAL
WRITTEN OR ELECTRONIC APPLICATION.
THE QUESTION WOULD BE WHETHER OR NOT THE PERSON APPLYING FOR
THE JOB IS A CONVICTED FELON.
SO, THIS IS SORT OF A NATIONAL MOVEMENT.
>> HOW WOULD THIS PROPOSAL HELP WITH THE REINTRODUCTION
OF FOLKS WHO ARE JUST GETTING OUT OF PRISON BACK INTO
SOCIETY?
>> AS YOU CAN IMAGINE COMING OUT OF AN INSTITUTION
SITUATION LIKE THAT CAN BE VERY TROUBLING FOR AN
INDIVIDUAL AND THEN CARRIES ON INTO THEIR FAMILY.
ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF SUCCESS IN
ELIMINATING RECIDIVISM IS HAVING GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT AND
PART OF THAT GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT IS BEING ABLE TO
MAKE A LIVING.
YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS THAT GET OUT OF BEING INCARCERATED.
THEY HAVE CHILDREN, WIFE, HUSBAND, SPOUSE, KIDS.
THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO EARN AS PART OF THE CYCLE OF LIFE
IS EARNING A LIVING.
>> HOW WOULD BUSINESS OWNERS KNOW THAT IF THIS IS
SUCCESSFUL, THEY ARE NOT HIRING PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRIBLY
DANGEROUS?
>> ONE OF THE CRITICAL PARTS OF THE BILL THAT HAS TO BE
LOOKED AT IS SIMPLY THAT IT SAYS THAT THEY WOULD NOT ASK
THIS QUESTION ON THE INITIAL APPLICATION.
OF COURSE, THERE ARE CERTAIN JOB DUTIES THAT ARE SENSITIVE
OR MAY REQUIRE BACKGROUND CHECKS, FOR EXAMPLE, BANKS
TEND TO ALWAYS SCREEN ALL OF THEIR EMPLOYEES AND AN
INDIVIDUAL IN THIS CASE MAY NOT PASS THAT BACKGROUND
CHECK.
THIS IS NOT A BILL THAT PREVENTS AN EMPLOYER FROM
MAKING A BACKGROUND CHECK, BUT PREVENTS THEM FROM ASKING THE
QUESTION ON INITIAL APPLICATION.
WE HOPE TO ENGAGE THESE FOLKS IN A CONVERSATION.
THEY MAY HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT TO OFFER AND IF THEY
ANSWERED A SIMPLE QUESTION TRUTHFULLY ON AN APPLICATION,
THEY MAY NEVER GET THAT OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THAT
DISCUSSION WITH AN EMPLOYER.
>> PEOPLE ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT CRIME RIGHT NOW.
HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK IT IS TO BE UP HERE AT THE
ROUNDHOUSE TALKING ABOUT CRIME IN THE COMMUNITY.
>> IT IS VERY CRITICAL.
YOU KNOW.
AS CITIZENS, ONE OF OUR EXPECTATIONS, SO TO SPEAK, IS
THAT WE LIVE IN SAFE COMMUNITIES.
KEEPING THOSE THAT NEED TO BE LOCKED UP, LOCKED UP IS
APPROPRIATE, BUT THOSE THAT HAVE SHOWN THE OPPORTUNITY TO
MOVE FORWARD IN LIFE AND BECOME PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS, WE
ABSOLUTELY NEED TO GIVE THOSE FOLKS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO
SO.
>> MANY PROPOSALS THAT WE HAVE SEEN COME OUT IN THIS
LEGISLATIVE SESSION HAVE TO DO WITH CRIME OR PRISON ARE GOING
TO COST MONEY.
IS THIS THE TIME TO BE SPENDING MONEY ON THOSE THINGS
WHEN THE BUDGET IS SO TIGHT?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE TOWARDS
BILLS LIKE THE ONE THAT WE STARTED TO DISCUSS, HOW DO WE
ACCOMPLISH GETTING FOLKS MOVED ALONG OUT OF CRIMINAL
SITUATIONS WITHOUT PUTTING THAT BURDEN ON THE STATE
BUDGET.
WE TALKED TREMENDOUSLY ABOUT PROGRAMS THAT WOULD HELP
REINTEGRATE FOLKS INTO SOCIETY, BREAK ADDICTIONS,
THOSE SORTS OF PROGRAMS.
WE HAVE SUCCESS IN -- IT IS STARTING TO GAIN SOME STEAM,
SUCCESS IN REINTEGRATING FOLKS.
THERE IS SOME PROGRAMS IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS, LOS LUNAS,
THAT ARE ORGANIZED AND DEVELOPED TO GET PEOPLE BACK
INTO SOCIETY.
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